News   Sep 06, 2024
89 Avenue Road About to Rise High in Yorkville
 2K     2 
News   Sep 06, 2024
More Height, Heft, and Scalloped Redesign for Proposal Near Davisville Station
 1.5K     8 
News   Sep 06, 2024
News Roundup for September 6, 2024
 587     0 

Spadina Subway Extension

"As we all know from the Sheppard line, the density doesn't always materialize thanks to the middle-class NIMBY's."

Thousands of new residential units have been created in the Sheppard corridor, but remember that the subway is not finished and it's densest stretch was and probably still is between Don Mills and Scarborough Town Centre, conveniently, the area the subway did not reach. This segment already had thousands of jobs and dozens of towers (some of which are quite sketchy; the entire area is not particularly well-off by located-next-to-subway standards, and neither are most residents of Don Mills towers, for that matter) adjacent to planned stops, and there's room for plenty of new developments as well. It would also make easy connections with about 19 Scarborough bus routes.

Seems to me that the NIMBYs might have been easier to get around east of Don Mills as the area is going through significant homeownership change - tons of elderly people who've been entrenched there for 40 years have been vacating their homes, replaced by young families, renters, new Canadians, etc., all of whom would probably be much less willing to fight redevelopment, especially when you factor in resulting boosts in house/land prices that they stand to profit from.
 
rb, I think that's what I said:

What this is about is political power - pure and simple. Having worked on political campaigns, I can tell you that residents of appartment buildings are all but ignored during elections. Home owners are the most likely to vote and be courted by politicians so we end up with a $1.5 B subway to Vaughan.
Click to expand...

With respect to the Vaughan subway extension, you have another important factor: money. If someone did a land titles search of the properties closest to where the subway extension is expected to run, I'm sure you'd find the names of some of the wealthiest and politically well-connected in the GTA.
 
"Royson makes a good point (even a broken clock is right twice a day). Why is it that the subway lines mostly run through middle class and upper-middle class neighbourhoods while we strand the poorest (and most public transit "

Great post, I can only dispute you on technicalities. Finch and Keele has a certain amount of below-average income residents apartments etc, and is not too far from other concentrations. However it is unlikely that Finch and Keele had anything to do with the Province (Sorbara/YorkU/York region's) championing of this subway.

As you and many others have noted, politics is the rationale for the decision, and certain citizens count more than others. The Province is treating the subway extension like a GO line where three quarters of the new riders are expected to drive and park next to stations. Since free GO lots generally fill up by 7 or 8 am attract only a one-way peak period ridership.

-------------------
Transportation Minister Harinder Takhar would not confirm or deny the report yesterday. But he acknowledged that a Spadina subway line extension was consistent with the government's goals.

"Public transit is our priority and we want to make public transit a viable alternative for commuters and that is one way we feel we can address the issue of congestion," he said.
--------------------

There is a danger in designing transit projects around the needs of car drivers for faster roads. Bus rapid transit is generally used to help expand roads. When councillors asked what would happen to the York busway when the subway was built, they replied that the multi-million dollar TTC investment would become a 'city improvement' (donation of wider road to city transportation department).

Highway + Congestion = Transit for driving commuters
When looking at congestion, highway engineers only examine traffic during peak periods since roads that can meet peak traffic flows can by definition, meet all other time periods as well. If you are designing a system around congestion relief you need to divert car drivers during the peak period, which is why the Province, GO and suburban officials often talk about commuter service and transit interchangably.

As borgos mentioned there are certain citizens voters who count the most and they are suburban peak hour highly paid driving commuters. The problem the transportation department and Provincial advisors are interested in is how to ease auto commuting problems, given that they can not further increase highway capacity into downtown. In this context 40 cents for each TTC rider may be seen as an unjustifiable subsidy, whereas money for 'congestion relief' (highways or commuter parking lot based transit) is considered investing in our regional economy.

Why won't the Province's GO model work for the subway?

GO requires 10x the subsidy per rider as for a TTC rider. GO saves money by essentially running a one-way in one-way out peak service with cheap stations and few employees. The subway will have about 100x the service frequency and almost 100x the cost of the neighbouring Bradford line.
Jurisdictions such as Atlanta, San Fransisco and Washington that have attempted to use their subways as an parking lot supported commuter system in their suburbs have had to provide GO level subsidy amounts per passenger and their parking lot stations do not have our service frequencies, especially off-peak.

There is a huge opportunity cost to surrounding the valuable land around subway stations with surface parking. York region buses attempting to get in and out of Steeles West station in the peak will be competing with thousands of cars (like driving to a suburban sports stadium for a game or a mall at xmas time).

Why will all buses have to use Steeles station?
Because York U wants to use the York subway to get buses off campus necessitating an extra transfer and an extra fare for 905ers to get to York U. If the extension backers were truly interested in the lines users they would have stopped it at York University. Then buses and subway could meet at a destination that people want to go, unlike the hydro corridor. This would cut unneeded transfers and extra fares, but project backers have different priorities.

Transportation project policy
If you are building this line primarily to serve driving suburban commuters who are headed downtown then why not look at the existing Bradford line and see how much money is left over to serve more pressing needs. Of course considering options would assume that there is rationality and public input in Provincial transportation project funding decisions.
 
The Sheppard line is also an example that even putting a few thousand units next to subway stations does not make a successful subway line. Other than near Don Mills there is not much development to the north or south of Sheppard meaning that not much traffic comes in on the Bayview or Leslie bus (let along Bessarion). Even with the extreme densities of North York Centre the thin linear nature of the corridor means that buses are not bringing in riders from either side. Still even a linear corridor is better than nothing (compare North York Centre to Ellesmere or Glencairn stations for example).

Another problem with the condos along Sheppard is that they are owned by largely upper middle class people with free parking in a neighbourhood where everything else has free parking, shopping malls, strip malls etc. Thus the ridership of these condos is highly peak period downtown oriented. The ridership that comes in from Don Mills station is more mixed in income and destination.
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to complete the Sheppard line to STC before proceeding on a York extension? The cost would be about the same, and it seems like it would be more beneficial in terms of connecting the network and making Sheppard a real line. Also, providing alternative rapid transit to STC seems important given that the SRT is on its last legs...
 
green, running a subway through the Jane St corridor would also dovetail nicely with that other policy objective: addressing issues of crime and alienation in some of Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods. The unemployed and underemployed would probably have an easier time finding work if they had a reliable and effecient way to get to work. The subway would also encourage private sector investments in these communities. I can see a private sector Regent Park-style redevelopment with all of its advantages happening. Why aren't these valid policy objectives when deciding where to build a subway?
 
green, running a subway through the Jane St corridor would also dovetail nicely with that other policy objective: crime

That's assuming we can or will build subway stations to poor neighbourhoods and bring changes that will help existing residents located in non subway-supportive density sprawl like Jane Finch, Rexdale, Malvern, Mississauga (Malton) Brampton etc.

The lrt model would have a better chance of providing a viable network to serve the city's poor low density areas without overheating the market and pushing them out.

The $1.5 billion gift seems to be creating a lot of dissent among transit advocates.

Metro Ed Drass Thursday March 9
York plan misguided

When I attended York University, I could not understand why there was no subway to the main campus at Keele and Steeles. It seemed like a natural progression — extend the Spadina subway line toward a major destination.

On the surface, bringing trains north from Downsview station still seems like a logical idea — and the provincial government may be ready to pay part of the $1.5 billion cost. However, Toronto’s experience with subway building shows what happens to grand projects that seemed logical at the time.

Our two most recent subways — the Sheppard line and the Spadina line between St. George and Downsview stations — move far fewer people than their capacity. Sheppard runs four-car trains instead of six, and in peak hours every other train on the Spadina line turns back at St. Clair West station.

Many argue that if you just extend these routes, they will get busier. Does that justify the hundreds of millions of dollars in construction costs? Meanwhile, citizens elsewhere in Toronto ride buses or streetcars that get stuck in traffic.

Improving transit toward York makes sense. It will attract some riders from the 905 area who now crowd onto Yonge subway trains. Commuters in congested York Region will be more disposed to leave their cars for transit. Housing and commercial development will be spurred along the new subway corridor.

However, improvement does not only mean building subways. Dedicated bus and light rail lines — where transit vehicles do not mix with traffic — can do the job, at much less cost per kilometre. Also, there is an underused GO Transit rail line just a short distance from York U.

Spending $1.5 billion in tax dollars may even postpone or kill more cost-effective — but less glamorous — transit projects elsewhere.

Subways help politicians by showing they are doing something. Subways boost economic growth along their routes. Subways get transit out of the way of cars. At too high a cost.

The York subway is the right move — if politicians and citizens commit to dramatic increases in development along the entire Spadina line. Past experience indicates this will not happen any time soon.

The York subway is the right move — if it inspires us to also build a network of traffic-free bus and light rail lines across greater Toronto. The province may also support projects in Brampton, Mississauga and York Region, but can they truly address widespread congestion?

Subways should be built in locations with sufficient potential demand. Constructing lines that may only justify their high price tag in 50 years is misspending the funds that are needed for better transit right now.

Yes, the subway to York will benefit some riders by offering a simpler, quicker ride. But most of the benefits will have nothing to do with making our overall transit service faster or more reliable. It’s transit planning based on politics, not on what is needed by commuters across Toronto.

If you’d like to know more details about the subway extension, including links to the plans, read transit advocate Steve Munro’s “Who Will Ride The York University Subway?†at his website at www.stevemunro.ca.
 
I want the subway developed further, so I'll support this. But I'd rather have a subway on Queen, perhaps looping up to connect with the Bloor Danforth line just like the Yonge University line.

I live at Parliament and Carlton but I rarely go to Queen West because it takes forever and a day on the streetcar due to congestion on Queen. I'd be much more likely to shop and Dine on Queen, King, and neighboring streets with a downtown connector line of some sort. I take the streetcar regularly and I love streetcars, but Queen is too congested for them to move at the proper speed.
 
This seems a good a time as any to finally release these to the world (and to show what a big geek I am). :)

I guess you could call this my response to the "Yoyotek" plan, which I found absurd.

Phase 2 is what I think could be immediately "feasible" if the TTC started receiving stable funding and could start operating at a fare recovery level more in line with the rest of the western world.

Click to expand


Phase 3 is truly dreaming, but I believe more logical than Yoyotek.



I'd like to point out my "Etobicoke LRT", which follows hydro corridors and other available rights-of-way for most of its route and brings rapid transit to some of the most transit-starved areas of the city, such as Jane-Finch, Rexdale, and south Etobicoke, at a much lower cost than a subway.
 
CDL, you are dreaming, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't mind seeing you draw up a more modest proposal. Take what we have now as a starting point. Take your Queen line but when it hits Parkdale branch it northwest through Dundas West to Mount Dennis. Then connect the other end up to Cosburn through Pape. This would take two of your lines and turn it into another U like the Yonge University line. This would also do a good job of taking a load off of Yonge and Bloor because people could change at Pape and get to Yonge and Queen.

Alternatively, shorten the Queen East part of the line to Parliament and run it up there to Castle Frank, passing Regent Park, Cabbagetown, and St. Jamestown.
 
CDL: Was Yoyotek the ridiculous one that had three lines terminating at Sherway and a line that ran out to Twyn Rivers?

I'm in about 90% agreement with your future map - only minor quibbles (no Mount Pleasant stop for Eglinton? and a couple other details that could only be solved with a GTA fare integration). As intriguing as an extended Sheppard line would be that goes west along Finch to Rexdale, Humber, Woodbine, and the airport, and then down to Kipling, I've recently become convinced that some sort of LRT might work better there, particularly if integrated with whatever gets built in Peel, and possibly Viva. I've destroyed many Ride Guides with markers trying to find subway routes that goes where it needs to go out west without getting ridiculously long and expensive, but it's not easy...
 
Untill the subways are built, we could have about 95% of CDL's in plan tommorow, if the TTC would understand the words

"LIMITED STOP BUS SERVICE" and "VIVA"
 
Only 2 subway lines going to Steeles (Black Creek) parking lot? Perhaps we'd better triple track that as there's room to expand the parking lot along the hydro corridor.

I think we could get this rapid network completed by about 2021. This is for a stage 1 Viva type rapid transit system right?
Given the Toronto centric nature of the proposed lines it might have been popular when the 416 suburbs were the determining vote between Libs. & Cons. Perhaps you'll need to add Drum's Pickering Sheppard extension and add a new subway line along the 403 to Oakville or 401 to Brampton..

I don't get a chance to criticize your posts often so I figured this was my chance. Any cost estimates? Don't worry you can always say, "it's even cheaper than the CAA plan!"
 
I think we could get this rapid network completed by about 2021.
Click to expand...
Not a chance. When I came to Canada back in 1987, I vaguely remember my father talking about how much potential the TTC has and how they are going to expand their subway network. Well it's 2006 (18.5 years later) and the only addition we've seen so far is the Sheppard line. Unfortunately I doubt we'll see more than another few measely stations added.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top