Spadina Subway Extension

[Chuck100]

cdl, your map is gold. There are two suggestions that I can make:

1) I think that only the University line needs to go to York University.

2) Might want to reconsider the routing of the DRL through downtown. My suggestion is to run it through Regent Park, turn it southwest at Ryerson, and run it diagonally SW from there meeting Queen Station, King and Bay, then Union Station. Except for that, the rest of the line is fine.

Expensive, yes. However most of the 1 million new residents are moving to the suburbs, and because transportation knows no boundaries, more people in all suburbs means more highways in all parts of the 416 area without an aggressive plan like this one. Your plan realizes that subways in the suburbs, not downtown, are what takes people out of their cars, while at the same time modest improvements like the Queen LRT and a couple stations on the DRL are all that downtown needs. More importantly though, the TTC doesn't have to be tied to an 80% fare recovery! Let's follow the New York model of 50%.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Only 2 subway lines going to Steeles (Black Creek) parking lot?"
"1) I think that only the University line needs to go to York University."

If the Sheppard line is not going to continue west of Downsview, it might nice if it and Spadina ran up to York on one track, with, say, 2/3 of the trains going downtown and 1/3 going out east. Hell, this might not be feasible, but some Spadina trains could run straight onto the Sheppard line at Downsview to really connect everybody and create a quasi-DRL.

 

[The Burgher of TO]

the TTC has tried interlining like that before and had major problems with it. i couldn't see them experimenting with it again

 

[Canuck 36]

It works elsewhere, I don't see why it can't be successfully applied here.

 

[cdl42]

What I propose is nowhere as convoluted as interlining, which on a scale that big would be damn near impossible to manage. What I have in mind is every 2nd train on both Spadina and Sheppard turning back at Downsview, with possibile variations by time of day based upon frequency levels. The line would still be just 2 tracks.

This is in order to reduce transfers, allowing people a speedy crosstown trip. People in north Scarborough heading to points like Humber College would only have to transfer once. In fact, with that map no one would ever have to change trains more than once to get to the airport.

green22,
C'mon, we're allowed to dream, aren't we?

scarberian:
"Was Yoyotek the ridiculous one that had three lines terminating at Sherway and a line that ran out to Twyn Rivers?"

Yup, that's the one. With a Tallpines station, too.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And, if memory serves me correctly, it still didn't extend the Yonge line north of Finch...

 

[cdl42]

Yup. That's why I was annoyed by it being tossed around so much.

 

[peachy0]

I think that the inter regional impact of this extension is being greatly overstated. Realize that no matter what part of the 905 you live in, extending the subway to Jane and Steeles will in no way impact how you travel to York University. In other words, the subway will offer absolutely no incentive to stop driving to York for those who live in the 905 area.

I agree that as a 905-er it won't change how I get to York. On the other hand, it will change, entirely, how I get to Toronto. I don't take the subway because getting to Finch or Downview Station takes forever, either by car or by bus. If the subway went to York, then I could drive to York in ten minutes, park, and take the subway the rest of the way. That's where the "inter regional impact of this extension" comes from. It allows 905'ers to get into Toronto by public transit, something really difficult to do now.

 

[green22]

The man still knows how to draw a crowd
BY MURRAY CAMPBELL
WC 777 words
PD 10 March 2006
SN The Globe and Mail
SC GLOB
PG A7
LA English
CY All material copyright Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. or its licensors. All rights reserved.

LP For a guy who fell from the highest echelons of politics five months ago, Greg Sorbara still knows how to hog the limelight.

The turnout at the mid-afternoon news conference he called yesterday was respectable by any standards but spectacular for a backbencher with no extraordinary tasks to perform — except to clear his name. Unfortunately for him, this is something of a full-time job.


TD The former Ontario finance minister summoned reporters to update them on his latest attempt to get out from under the RCMP investigation that forced him from cabinet last October. But there was almost as much interest in hearing what Mr. Sorbara had to say about his role in what may — or may not — be a premature disclosure of a key element of the Ontario budget that will be tabled on March 23.

On the first issue, you have to feel for Mr. Sorbara. He roams the halls of Queen's Park these days clearly nursing a real sense of grievance that he was named in RCMP search warrants over allegations (not proved in court) that he defrauded shareholders of Royal Group Technologies, with which he was once associated.

He said yesterday that his lawyers had filed in Ontario Superior Court an application to erase all references to him in the search warrants. He said there is nothing to implicate him in the thousands of pages of documentation supporting the warrants. “The fact is my name does not belong in those warrants,†he said. “Period.â€..

..Would that it were that easy to believe that the former minister isn't mixed up somehow in the premature disclosure that a Toronto subway line will be extended to the doorstep of his constituency. The Toronto Star reported this week that the $1.5-billion subway extension to York University — a pet project of Mr. Sorbara's — will be announced in the budget.

The government's official line is that the story was speculative and thus there are no plans to investigate whether there's a blabbermouth in its ranks. But it has the feel of a budget leak — a government official said privately this week that the Star story was solid — and Mr. Sorbara is at the centre of the controversy about it.

Michael Di Biase, the mayor of Vaughan (which starts just across the street from York), said this week that he concluded that the government was poised to announce the extension after an informal chat with Mr. Sorbara at a Liberal fundraiser last week. He said he recalled the former minister telling him to stick around after the March break because there would be “a good news story†in the budget.

Mr. Sorbara yesterday denied any culpability. He said he doesn't know what's in the budget and that he did not discuss its contents with Mr. Di Biase. “I don't know who he talked to but it was definitely not me,†he said.

What we're left with is two elected officials offering two versions of a chance encounter at a glitzy dinner. It's unlikely we'll know which recounting to believe without an official probe and that's even more unlikely given the government's apparent indifference to the issue.

Perhaps it's a job for the RCMP. After all, it seems to have a thing about investigating speculation.

mcampbell@globeandmail.com
-------------------------------------

You can sort of understand why these partners in seeking the York subway over the years confided in each other. Michael Di Biase unfortunately told too many of his developer friends and who knows who else. Surprise, surprise, the story that has been bubbling around amongst the players finds its way to the media from an unknown credible source.

Di Biase is fingered as the source and he in turn fingers Sorbara as his source. Sorbara meanwhile denies all knowledge of the subway and expects people to believe that the architect of McGuinty's election, the 2nd most powerful man in the Province and the most powerful backer of the subway was out of the loop about the upcoming budget allocation for the subway.

Remember McGuinty is working hard to get Sorbara reinstated as head of finance which could happen at any time. To keep him out of the loop on the budget (especially on the subway) would mean wasting time for him to be put up to speed whenever he is reinstated. To believe that he is out of the loop is simply naive and politicians & political reporters are just rolling their eyes.

Remember that the Liberal government gave Conservative Fantino a newly created plum post just in the hopes that he would not run against (and possibly beat) their number 2 man. These two investigations and all of the other ones (brother's developer fundraiser DeGasperis, brother's approval of sprawl York U development given to Tribute at below-market value to firm related with Sorbara).

He needs a subway extension more than ever as something to run on as Fantino lives in Vaughan and is fairly popular. There is still a chance that Fantino could double-cross the Liberals, quit his post and run if he thinks Sorbara is beatable. The subway will give Sorbara the support of land owners, developers, political officials and voters who might be tempted to go with the Conservatives or split their support. One thing about Vaughan, its politics are never boring.

----------------------------------

I think we could get this rapid network completed by about 2021.

"Not a chance. When I came to Canada back in 1987, I vaguely remember my father.."


Have to read the whole thing.

I think we could get this rapid network completed by about 2021. This is for a STAGE 1 VIVA TYPE rapid transit system right?

A stage one Viva type rapid transit system means trains on wheels, bus shelters. Buses, I mean 'unbuses' every 7 minutes in rush hour. I think we could do this even on a TTC budget.

 

[EnviroTO]

scarberian:
"Was Yoyotek the ridiculous one that had three lines terminating at Sherway and a line that ran out to Twyn Rivers?"

Yup, that's the one. With a Tallpines station, too.

It is on the Transit Toronto website here.

The Twyn Rivers station is basically Sheppard and Meadowvale (an intersection with townhouses and there are some highrise apartment just south of there, also there may be vacant land there too for denser development if the google view is up to date). Also on the map it shows Tallpines station as being at Kingston Rd which is probably as good as Steeles West in that it handles the commuters and connection to the 905 role being right off the 401. There could be refinements on the map (such as the Yellow line going up the Weston and Albion corrider instead of along Evans/Queensway but the nice thing about it is that you can't really find a place not covered and there is a fairly direct route without much transferring between lines. Actually every line crosses every other line at least once and twice for every line except the blue one. That means it would be more than easy to reach every point with only one transfer. Who knows, even if the map did put the Tallpines station at Tallpines Court instead of at Kingston Road near Tallpines Park, maybe in 2060 or 2080 when they get around to this type of development there could be a Tallpines Rougeview Corporate Centre.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

I think we could get this rapid network completed by about 2021.

"Not a chance. When I came to Canada back in 1987, I vaguely remember my father.."

While I cant see a network as extensive as Cdl's vision being constructed I do think that Toronto (and immediate neighbors) have been seeing a fundamental change in the past 10 years in how development is taking place. The City of Toronto alone is adding 50,000 citizens a year within its borders, and more and more of this growth is taking place in the form of very urban forms (condos, townhomes, misc. high density development). 10 years from now, and another 500,000 residents later, the need for transit will no longer be able to be ignored. Even now we are slowly starting to see shifts in the attitudes of the electorate towards public transit with more voters going to the ballot box in favour of subways and buses, and fewer waving the flag for asphalt and concrete highways.

Im not suggesting an extreme program where the network is doubled in a decade, but I can see larger scale expansion projects becoming more common over the next 10 years. Maybe after the Spadina exptension, we will see Shepphard completed and the conversion of the Scarborough RT taking place. And I would not be the slightest bit surprised to see a major new line such as Eglinton or the DRL under construction.

Toronto has suffered from the same ills of intense suburbanization that every other major North American city has over the past 30 years. I can understand how some people might be cynical about large scale expansion taking place in the city. I think if you examine the trend of growing urbanization over the last 15 years and the growing desire for better public transit, I would safely say that the transit drought is coming to an end, even if it is 10 or 15 years off from a complete recovery.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

A good summary for the land uses characteristics around the stations, by Joseph Hall at the Star:

All aboard for York U
Mar. 11, 2006. 03:05 AM

JOSEPH HALL
STAFF REPORTER


Just out front of Vari Hall, whose grand rotunda provides a geographic and symbolic hub for the campus, some 1,500 buses a day pull up to ferry students in and out of York University.

The unbroken stream of rumbling transit vehicles — bearing passengers from across the GTA and beyond — are testament to the far-flung commuter nature of the school's growing student body, as well as its isolation from more attractive transportation options.

Within the next seven years, those buses could all disappear.

This miraculous calming of York's central commons area would be just one of the touted benefits of a TTC plan to extend its underused Spadina subway line 6.2 kilometres to the top of the school's Keele St. campus.

If a provincial promise, revealed by the Toronto Star this week, to fund the $1.5 billion project comes through, the long-awaited extension could profoundly transform large segments of the northeastern region of the city through which it would run.

It would also establish the system's largest and most important portal to the suburban areas that lay beyond Toronto's city limits.

Here's a look at the latest plan:

All underground

The first thing to note about the proposed extension is that it would be, in its entirety, subterranean.

Unlike the existing line to the south, much of which runs at grade along the cancelled Spadina Expressway right-of-way, the extension would be burrowed underground from the existing Downsview station on up.

Looping northwest out of Downsview, it would cut across the top of Downsview Park, and travel below Keele St. up to York, where it would cut diagonally across the campus toward the school's northwest corner at Steeles Ave. W.

Using a combination of tunnelling and "cut and cover" construction methods, the line would dip as much as 20 metres below the surface, says Tom Middlebrook, the TTC's chief engineer.

As well, Middlebrook says, it would veer off markedly from the paths envisioned under earlier extension plans, most notably an approved 1990s proposal that was summarily killed by the province's former Tory government soon after it took office mid-decade.

That plan also called for a line to the York campus, but it then veered east to meet up with an extended Yonge line north of Steeles.

The latest plan was designed to address some markedly different priorities, including:

A connection with GO Transit's Bradford line, creating a seamless link between the two rail services.

Subway access to the Finch Ave. and Keele St. corridor, which has been pegged by the city for intensive, transit-friendly development.

A York University connection that would radically cut down on burdensome bus and car traffic into the school.

But the line's top priority would be found at the university's northwest boundary, where Toronto meets up with Vaughan, and where the TTC is proposing a marriage of unparalleled convenience between the commission and many of its 905 transit counterparts.

Steeles West

Located east of Jane St., the proposed Steeles West station would represent the first piece of TTC subway property to reach out into another municipality. Lying beneath Steeles Ave. at a northwestern angle, the station would provide entrances on both sides of the Toronto-Vaughan border.

And, according to Vaughan Mayor Michael Di Biase, it would spark a whole slew of development and transportation options for his city, York Region, and points beyond.

"We're planning for this to be a very large, regional transportation hub," Di Biase says. "And it will most definitively encourage high-density residential and office towers along Steeles Ave."

Along with enhanced development, new infrastructure around the station would include:

One of the GTA's largest commuter parking lots. Located on the nearby hydro corridor just north of the station, the 2,500-space lot would welcome commuters from all parts of York and Peel regions.

North America's largest transit bus terminal. With 36 to 40 bays — some 10 to 14 more than the TTC's next largest — the terminal would funnel TTC, GO Transit, York Region, Brampton and Greyhound bus passengers onto the Spadina line. Separated into three segments, it would ease the passenger burden on the Yonge line, which now accepts the majority of 905 bus connections at Finch station.

It would also divert buses almost entirely off the York campus.

As well, Di Biase says, Steeles West station could serve as a starting point for a further subway extension into the heart of Vaughan.

Vaughan and York Region have already submitted a proposal to the province for a 1.5-kilometre extension from the Steeles stop to the Vaughan Corporate Centre at Highways 7 and 400.

The Steeles station is expected to attract about 5 million new subway riders a year from the regions. The new extension should also add another 5 million from within Toronto itself, bringing the Spadina line's annual ridership up to 30 million.

York

The York University station would bring the subway to the very heart of the sprawling, isolated campus.

Sunk below the eastern edge of the school's commons area, the station would run diagonally between the Schulich School of Business and the York Lanes shopping and food-court facility. Tom Middlebrook says there would likely be entranceways from both buildings.

Finch West

Located to the southeast of the campus, Finch West would provide a third subway gateway to the campus. It could also bring new life to one of the city's most homely areas.

Located at Finch Ave. W. and Keele St., the site is within shouting distance of fallow urban scrubland, a sprawling industrial park and rows of fuel tanks situated to the east.

Middleton says the city, along with York, is developing plans to create large tracts of high-density development to the northeast of the station on unused university lands. He says the tank farms will also be relocated and replaced with transit supportive building.

The station would include a bus terminal and 400-car parking lot.

Sheppard West

Located at the top of the federal Downsview Park lands, Sheppard West — sandwiched between an airport and abandoned military warehouse to the south and an aging industrial park to the north — would let out onto probably the most desolate of all the current 69 subway stops.

But Middlebrook says the proposed location, with its northern entrance set back about 100 metres from Sheppard, would leave ample space for high-density development.

He also says Ottawa has agreed to cede segments of the park near the station for more high-density building.

The abutting 90,000-square-foot warehouse, built to withstand bomb attacks, cannot easily be torn down, Middlebrook says. But there are plans to turn it into a shopping or entertainment complex.

AoD

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"The Twyn Rivers station is basically Sheppard and Meadowvale (an intersection with townhouses and there are some highrise apartment just south of there, also there may be vacant land there too for denser development if the google view is up to date)."

Wow, townhouses. If 3 apartment buildings are all that is needed to justify a subway extension, why is no subway planned for Bathurst & Steeles, which, by a rough google map count has a cluster of 47 towers? Commuters from Durham aren't going to get off the highway and continue travelling west on the subway, and they're not going to use it to go downtown when the Rouge Hill GO station is 5 seconds away.

 

[samsonyuen]

Nice map CD42. I like the Yonge Express. It'd be great to get to Finch and up faster, and miss some of the downtown/midtown stations. Would it be quadtracking then? Also, would the Etobicoke LRT be like a streetcar or more like a SkyTrain?

Line naming: Maybe we should start calling the lines Yellow, Green, or Purple instead of Yonge, etc. A lot of people already refer to them as well, and it just makes it easier to refer to or remember for non-residents.

 

[cdl42]

"I like the Yonge Express. Would it be quadtracking then?"

Yes, it would have to be.

"Also, would the Etobicoke LRT be like a streetcar or more like a SkyTrain?"

Neither. It would be like an LRT (completely separated from traffic, except for some level crossings.). See: Calgary, Edmonton, Portland, LA, Dallas, most of Germany, etc, etc for examples.