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Spadina Subway Extension

"If he doesn't, he can take the subway to where the sun doesn't shine -- which is York Region."

:rollin

Sitting here in Mississauga I probably shouldn't be laughing, but what a great quote.

Though the provincial government isn't stupid; if there's going to be a subway announcement, I would think it would have to come with more than just funding for construction itself.
 
Howard Moscoe said the city will not expand its transit system until existing needs are addressed.

depending on how you look at it, you'd think moscoe was nuts
for saying this because there is a chance that it could put expansion plans in limbo but i think moscoe knows what he's doing.

think about it, the province isn't doing this to fill TTC needs. this is being done because it is election time soon and they have to leave a good impression on the voters. moscoe now has the upper hand where he can now make threats that the expansion will be scrapped because the TTC has to take care of other things, "other things" which aren't that noticeable to the average person as a subway expansion. in the end, moscoe can end up getting what he wants because the province might cave because they have to get their expansion plan going to make an impact on the voters.

but of course anything can happen, but this is the game plan i see.
 
for saying this because there is a chance that it could put expansion plans in limbo but i think moscoe knows what he's doing.
I think he knows exactly what he's doing.

1) Province, via the Star, indicates they have funding for a subway expansion.
2) Miller states that the city has financial problems that need to be solved first.
3) Province indicates that they are having difficulties running a deficit this year (revenues were up quite a bit) -- they would prefer to slay the deficit during an election year.
4) Province agrees (again) that Toronto and other municipalities have financial problems and needs help.
5) Ducharme has a very specific wish list for the maintenance and surface route expansion. Moscoe agrees.

I predict that this years budget does NOT include a subway (if it does, it is just a small amount to start construction in November or December). I predict that it does include significant general purpose funds for transit (Mississauga, Brampton, York Region, Ottawa, Kitchener, etc. have enough to kick-start their various packages -- Toronto starts building out surface transit).

The provincial budget has a deficit of about $500M ($500M in new transit funding per year?). This is far lower than predicted a couple of years ago and they managed to help cities at the same time, yada, yada, yada...

Miller gets re-elected due to making progress on the waterfront, getting the province to solve many issues, and boosting transit.

The 2007 budget includes subway funds and the remainder of the 'special project' funds for the previously mentioned cities. It also has a small surplus.

Miller, Moscoe, and quite possibly many other mayors heavily endorse a Liberal government in 2007 -- government respects local decisions, etc.


I'm fairly sure that Harper must be in on this somewhere to try and win over the GTA. He has regularly indicated that he prefers decisions be made locally. Perhaps Feds have informally agreed to match provincial transit funding levels or something similar as a geasture of good faith at closing the fiscal gap.
 
Someone already said this either in this thread or another, but I agree. We have to get rid of this tunnel vision which says either build Sheppard, build Spadina, or go home. Not to discredit those two expansions, but there are so many other lines which should at least be on the table, such as Eglinton and downtown relief line. And if York Region wants the Yonge subway so bad, it should be lobbying hard for a brand new relief line first.
 
This $500 million will allow TTC to buy 200 additional buses to deal with ridership issues now for $125 million; build a new garage to house 100 of them with room for 150 more at a cost of $65 million; build the Kingston Rd LRT for $100 million, add elevators to 20 subway stations (only 19 out of 62 have elevators now) at a cost $100 million; order 100 LRT's at a cost of $150 million; built the Queens Quay E extension at a cost of $100 million; hire 300 more drivers to deal with lack of drivers for current system as well for the new buses at a cost of $18 million; EA studies to revive the Eglinton W subway, Queen St, the replacement of the SRT to subway, Eglinton E LRT, converting the existing Sheppard line to an LRT for the full length of Sheppard; putting an LRT on Finch for the full length of it for a cost of $25 million.

Total cost is $578 million.

A big bang for the bucks where it will benefit all people, not a few.
 
TTC chief has right idea about transit priorities
BY John Barber March 2006 The Globe and Mail


LP Don't bother with the latest crossed-up smoke signals puffing out of Queen's Park. By no means attempt to pry open the black box of Transportation Minister Harinder Takhar. Ignore Mayor David Miller, whose anxious protestations that his positions are “clear†and “simple†only confirm the opposite. Desperately seeking a long-term fiscal bailout from Queen's Park, his mouth is temporarily stuffed with batting.

The one person who most needs to be heard on the (once again) promised Spadina subway extension is TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme. Plainspoken and unafraid, Mr. Ducharme speaks for all Torontonians, especially transit users, when he lays down the law on this potentially advantageous, potentially disastrous $1.4-billion project.


TD While the mayor waffles, Mr. Ducharme presents a list of firm priorities that must be met before the commission undertakes to tunnel through the postindustrial barrens of Downsview to a grand terminus in a transmission corridor north of Steeles Avenue.

“The top priority is state-of-good-repair,†he said yesterday, repeating a phrase that has become a mantra at the TTC ever since a worn-out signalling system killed three people on the Spadina line 10 years ago. “Over the next four or five years I need about $700-million a year . . . and it's not negotiable.â€

Even though, since the change of government in Ottawa, nobody really knows where much of that money is coming from.

Then there is another $200-million a year the commission needs to advance its next priority: a new network of upgraded surface routes for buses and streetcars. None of that is budgeted yet.

“Until you get the first two phases done, the third phase — a subway — is not on the table,†Mr. Ducharme said — period, full stop, end of discussion.

In that, the TTC boss is only reciting the party line first established by his predecessor, David Gunn, who used it to pry $1-billion for maintenance out of Queen's Park before agreeing to build the unfortunate Sheppard line. What sets Mr. Ducharme apart is his post-Sheppard insistence that major real-estate development also accompany the new line.

“If you're going to build a subway from Downsview to Steeles, and you're not going to build any density around it, you're wasting your time,†the hard-headed engineer said yesterday, uttering a progressive new mantra he has been repeating to anyone who cares to listen — including provincial officials keen on getting the shovels in the ground.

“If you guys are crazy enough to support this without a signed agreement of what development there will be,†he reported himself as telling them recently, “you're not doing your job. We're civil servants, we have a job to do. I will recommend totally against that.â€

The TTC boss doesn't just want nice-sounding policies that can easily be overturned by local residents. He wants a deal, “signed up front,†that guarantees a significant amount of development around the new stations before a nickel is spent on the new subway.

“It's either up front, sign off, keep your nose out of it — or forget about it.â€

Mr. Ducharme's firm embrace of the land-use creed is a landmark in TTC thinking and the best hope for the new project. The Spadina line can work with enough density at the stations, he said, and it will also benefit the system by taking pressure off the Yonge line. “But if land-use is not tied into it, taxpayers should be concerned.â€

For all governments involved, Mr. Ducharme boils the long-standing debate about the Spadina line down to a simple choice. “You're either going to build the city and build it properly, or you're not.â€

It's that clear cut.

“Are we going to move forward in a positive way or aren't we?†he asked, repeating the question. “If not, don't expect good results.â€

jbarber@globeandmail.com



Bad teeth in a gift horse BY Royson James March 2006
The Toronto Star

LP It's been a good week for Mayor David Miller, battered and beset as he has been by the burden of a perennial budget shortfall. But the mayor may want to beware of the province bearing "gifts."

First, the Star's Ian Urquhart reported the Dalton McGuinty government has a $1 billion it has to get rid of by the end of the month. That means, no more excuses of fiscal imbalance when Toronto demands Queen's Park pay its bills - bills that threaten to sink the city into bankruptcy..

..Yesterday we heard the province is set to announce plans to take the University-Spadina subway line from its terminus at Downsview northwest to York University and beyond..

..McGuinty should reverse the destructive policies of the Harris era...
That means paying half of the TTC's $123 million annual operating subsidy..
..The demands, backed up by full-page ads and a letter-writing campaign to Toronto-area MPPs, are not as unreasonable as first thought, especially when the province is flush with cash.

Katrina Miller of the Toronto Environmental Alliance said a subway is "way, way down" the priority list, even if the subject is just public transit. The TTC needs buses, lower fares and more light rail systems.

To foist a subway on Toronto without funding the current system properly is akin to "putting an extension on the house when the roof is blowing off," the TEA's Miller said.

So, should we soon expect a new deal for transit?

"Well, let's just say that you can't have investment without operating dollars. And I would think that everybody would ask the question: Now that you've built the subway, how do you expect to run it?" said Toronto's budget chief, David Soknacki.

In other words, a deal has been struck with the province. But history tells us to be cautious.

Provincial or federal governments think short-term. The billions in gas tax money earmarked for infrastructure disappear in maintenance garages and subway cars, and McGuinty doesn't get any credit. So, there is always an urge to cut some ribbons.

Exhibit One is the proposed rapid transit line from Union Station to Pearson airport. Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion has slammed it as not needed. The city of Toronto has said it's not a top priority. Studies show 17 per cent of Pearson travellers end up downtown, so the line would be of limited value. Still, the federal Liberals made this line their top priority.

And although he knows better, Mayor Miller supports it because it allows him to say Toronto doesn't need an island airport for urban business travellers.

Now, the line to York University. Politics, greased by Greg Sorbara, ex- provincial treasurer, drives this. Queen's Park, not the TTC, is making the decision on a subway to York versus a subway to Scarborough versus a light rapid transit network versus a thousand new buses.

And even if the line is terrific, where are the advocates who will demand the subway go up Jane St., where masses of poor, transit-dependent people live - instead of through Downsview Park and up Keele St., where it better serves "future development?" It's possible to do the Jane St. alignment and serve York University and York region - but who hears that?

In short, the deal is already cooked. Queen's Park gets its ribbon-cutting, the city will get a little cash. And citizens? We get more questions.

-----------------------------
Not sure about James's Jane street subway alignment but do agree that it would be nice if the government operated on rational rather than political principles. Are we bound to repeat the politically motivated grand projects of the past? original Spadina to Wilson, downsview extension, SRT, Sheppard (Lastman), York subway (Sorbara), Takhar or maybe Flaherty's riding next stop?
 
Viva in Vaughan is the only part that has not met ridership expectations because people really like their cars out there.

I don't think I agree with you there. To me, the reason Vaughan riders aren't taking VIVA to the subway as much as Markham and Richmond Hill riders is because of the far poorer connection to the subway. In rush hour, it can take as much as 45 minutes to go from Steeles and Jane to Downsview. Chop that to about 8 minutes and I'll be ridership will go through the roof.
 
If Yonge overcrowding is such a huge issue, why are we not addressing it directly, either with a DRL or adding express tracks to Yonge. If such a large number of passengers are taking Yonge from Finch to Union, it seems to me that an express Yonge line is not only feasible but necessary. And if it only stopped every 4-6 km or so it should be able to get downtown very quickly and have a fast turn-around time and high throughput... providing more seats?
 
Those were two wonderful articles by Royson and Barber -- I hope their views (and Ducharme's, perhaps the one guy not potitically tainted) gain momentum.

Is there even a chance that the extension would be able to cover its own increased operating costs? (Positives would be fewer/shorter bus routes, new riders).
 
In that, the TTC boss is only reciting the party line first established by his predecessor, David Gunn, who used it to pry $1-billion for maintenance out of Queen's Park before agreeing to build the unfortunate Sheppard line. What sets Mr. Ducharme apart is his post-Sheppard insistence that major real-estate development also accompany the new line.

“If you're going to build a subway from Downsview to Steeles, and you're not going to build any density around it, you're wasting your time,†the hard-headed engineer said yesterday, uttering a progressive new mantra he has been repeating to anyone who cares to listen — including provincial officials keen on getting the shovels in the ground.

“If you guys are crazy enough to support this without a signed agreement of what development there will be,†he reported himself as telling them recently, “you're not doing your job. We're civil servants, we have a job to do. I will recommend totally against that.â€

The TTC boss doesn't just want nice-sounding policies that can easily be overturned by local residents. He wants a deal, “signed up front,†that guarantees a significant amount of development around the new stations before a nickel is spent on the new subway.

“It's either up front, sign off, keep your nose out of it — or forget about it.â€

Couldn't agree with it more! Spadina subway - yes, but with conditions.

re: Jane alignment

Wasn't there some very preliminary ideas being thrown around for some sort of Jane St. ROW/LRT? Certainly, the stretch can use some avenue treatment.

AoD
 
"Total cost is $578 million.
A big bang for the bucks where it will benefit all people, not a few."

And then give the remaining almost-billion to GO to fund dual tracks, more trains, drivers, Union station upgrades, whatever, that can properly deal with people coming in from the 905 and actually convert some drivers to transit users.

Would $1.5 billion fund a DRL from Union to Pape or even Union to Dundas West?
 
I don't think sending the subway up Jane would have been a good idea. The biggest transit generator is the university and the route planned puts a subway station right in the middle of it. The only subway stop on the line as planned that I have issues with is the Sheppard West station which at the end of a runway has serious development constraints. I would have put that station further north near Ashwarren and the CN tracks. The planned location at Sheppard West station is of benefit during mega-events at Downsview but that has only happened twice... hardly worth building a permanent station for. Adding to the reduced usefulness of Sheppard West station is the already existing large bus platform at Downsview and the lack of one at Sheppard West.
 
Royson makes a good point (even a broken clock is right twice a day). Why is it that the subway lines mostly run through middle class and upper-middle class neighbourhoods while we strand the poorest (and most public transit dependent) of our residents to the fringes of the city? The Jane Street corridor ALREADY has the sort of density to support a subway line unlike the York Univ. or Shepphard lines which rely upon anticipated density to justify the expenditures. As we all know from the Sheppard line, the density doesn't always materialize thanks to the middle-class NIMBY's. What this is about is political power - pure and simple. Having worked on political campaigns, I can tell you that residents of appartment buildings are all but ignored during elections. Home owners are the most likely to vote and be courted by politicians so we end up with a $1.5 B subway to Vaughan.
 
Why is it that the subway lines mostly run through middle class and upper-middle class neighbourhoods while we strand the poorest (and most public transit dependent) of our residents to the fringes of the city?
This is actually quite easy to answer. Votes.

The folks in upper-middle class have a higher percentage of voters who will reward or punish their elected official based on the job they've done. Lower class neighbourhoods tend to have very low voter turnout. Often boils down to home or condo owners versus renters in apartments.

If a riding is divided into two neighbourhoods, one upperclass nad one lower class, then the upper class neighbourhood will receive more attention since it gives the politician the best chance of being re-elected.


Politicians reward you for voting (either for or against) by trying to keep or win your vote. If you don't vote, you simply don't matter to them.
 
Add in the fact that these areas became in demand because of the subway hence driving house prices up accordingly.
 

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