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Dundas St Rapid Transit (Metrolinx, Mississauga, Halton Region, CoT)

gweed123 said:
If the goal is to get rail to Square One, the best option IMO is to extend the Eglinton LRT along the Mississauga Transitway alignment. Rebuild the roadway to work with both LRT and buses. Run it along the Transitway to Square One, and then use the Square One Loop as a turnaround.
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I believe that the transitway was designed and built in a way that it could be easily converted to an LRT corridor in the future whenever funding and demand warrants it.

Currently in Ottawa, the central portion of the OC Transpo Transitway is being converted into the Confederation LRT line.
P1070796.JPG

http://beachburg.blogspot.ca/2017/07/summer-observations-in-ottawa-part-i.html
 
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robmausser said:
Why are people obsessed with building subways to the suburbs?

Why would you build a subway along the CP corridor, when you could add more GO tracks and build GO-RER in the same space.
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427 seems like a much better terminus than Kipling.
They realized this with Spadina, when it was extended to 401
They realized this with the new Spadina - making it to 407.
The realized this with SSE (and SRT) - making it to STC (i.e. 401).
 
idc24 said:
I believe that the transitway was designed and built in a way that it could be easily converted to an LRT corridor in the future whenever funding and demand warrants it.

Currently in Ottawa, the central portion of the OC Transpo Transitway is being converted into the Confederation LRT line.
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Yup, that was my understanding as well. I'm not talking about a Confederation Line-style conversion to LRT though, I'm talking about putting tracks down in the existing BRT corridor, so that both buses and trains can operate on it. The tracks would veer into the shoulder lane at stations, while the inner lane could be used as a bus bypass lane (much like it currently does). The other option of course would be to have the LRT tracks stay in the centre lane, offering an express ride from Renforth to Square One.

For what it's worth, a similar setup could be applied on Dundas from Hurontario to Kipling Station. Build a BRT Rapidway that also has LRT tracks in it. Have the BRT service be thru-running on Dundas, while the LRT service originates at Square One, goes down Hurontario, then goes east on Dundas to Kipling. That way you get the service boost that would be required east of Hurontario, and you get a direct connection between Square One and Kipling.
 
gweed123 said:
Yup, that was my understanding as well. I'm not talking about a Confederation Line-style conversion to LRT though, I'm talking about putting tracks down in the existing BRT corridor, so that both buses and trains can operate on it. The tracks would veer into the shoulder lane at stations, while the inner lane could be used as a bus bypass lane (much like it currently does). The other option of course would be to have the LRT tracks stay in the centre lane, offering an express ride from Renforth to Square One.

For what it's worth, a similar setup could be applied on Dundas from Hurontario to Kipling Station. Build a BRT Rapidway that also has LRT tracks in it. Have the BRT service be thru-running on Dundas, while the LRT service originates at Square One, goes down Hurontario, then goes east on Dundas to Kipling. That way you get the service boost that would be required east of Hurontario, and you get a direct connection between Square One and Kipling.
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Wouldn't that dramatically decrease speeds?
 
"Dundas Street Bus Rapid Transit and Priority Bus" gets a mention on PDF page 37 of the Metrolinx Business Plan posted here.

5.3 Funding for Other Future Projects

In addition to the rapid transit projects already underway, Metrolinx continues to partner with municipalities in advancing the planning and design work of several other future projects, including:
• Durham-Scarborough Bus Rapid Transit
- Preliminary Design Business Case for 36km of Bus Rapid Transit linking Scarborough Centre with Pickering, Whitby, Ajax and Downtown Oshawa;
• Dundas Street Bus Rapid Transit and Priority Bus
- Initial Business Case for 45km of enhanced bus infrastructure linking Toronto, Mississauga, Oakville and Burlington; and
• Brampton Queen Street/Highway 7 West Extension Bus Rapid Transit
- Initial Business Case for 20km of Bus Rapid Transit linking Downtown Brampton and Vaughan Metropolitan Centre. n.
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Subway should be built to Hurontario/Dundas to connect with the LRT and fulfill the redevelopment potential along the Dundas East corridor (so no subway along Milton corridor to interfere with GO Trains). Alternatively, LRT could be built and possibly interline with Hurontario to MCC.

The idea of a 40km-long on-street BRT line from Burlington to Etobicoke is just ridiculous. And the 1/101 Dundas/Express in Mississauga gets around 20,000 boardings per weekday, more than the entire Burlington Transit and Oakville Transit systems combined.

Considering the length of the corridor, the difference in ridership in Mississauga, it should be two different solution: subway or LRT plus BRT, not BRT alone.

The service along Dundas in Mississauga is already 5.5 minutes (12 minutes with 1 Dundas and 10 minutes with 101 Dundas Express), with 100% articulated buses. How many more buses can you fit in there? With signal priority, how many more times can they cross the intersection? It's already an 60 foot bus passing through every 2 minutes 45 seconds. If they increase the frequency to 3 minutes and add signal priority, the buses stop all other traffic every 1 minute 30 seconds.

For Dundas to grow, it can't be BRT. It can be light rail or subway, It can be regular bus (no signal priority), but not BRT.

Keep in mind, for the Hurontario LRT, they are planning to run 2-LRV trains every 5 minutes instead of single LRV every 2.5 minutes. The Dundas buses are already at that 5 minute limit.
 
i actually like the idea of brt on dundas from 427 where i think the subway should end. no single route is gonna travel all 40 km, but there would be a variety of services starting and ending at various points on or near the corridor. I would prefer to see an Ottawa-style grade separated busway through most of Halton where space permits to speed it up and allow for local and express services, surface brt is laughably slow already, and frustratingly slow when its speed limit is lower than general traffic lanes (of which there should not be more than 2), as demonstrated by viva. Milton RER+BRT was always the best option but if that won't happen I wouldn't mind subway to cooksville and brt west from there. LRT in any way shape or form would either force transfers or be a pain to manage if it is to be interlined with brt services coming from the west.
 
Dundas doesn't justify a subway now nor 25 year from now past 427. You think Sheppard is bad for ridership and operating cost, Dundas well be at least 3 times worse.

An BRT past Mavis Rd is pushing it and not past 403. A BRT has been in Halton Master plan well over 2 decades, but no density along it now nor 25 years down the road.

Ridership on Dundas falls off at Mavis and more so at Erin Mills.

I guess people haven't seen or look at Phoenix LRT. If you did, you would see its almost 30 miles long with the opening of 2 mile extension in May and the line will see 2 more extension by 2025. The line carries 50,000 rider a day today, considering this a 2030 number. Service is every 15 minutes with 2 100' LRV and sees a few 3 car trains at peak time as well for special events. It takes you 90 minutes to go from end to end before the opening of the new extension. Density is very low for most of the route.

Stops are miles apart, with some under a mile in the city downtown area.

Can see LRT up to Mavis and BRT/express west of Mavis. Headway in Mississauga one thing and a longer headway in Halton.
 
Dundas makes sense as a BRT line.

Oakville is growing very rapidly along Dundas including a lot of high density stuff, it just isn't there yet. In 10 years it will have very transit supportive densities on the corridor. Priority queue jump lanes past UTM is all that's needed for the foreseeable future in terms of physical infrastructure if you ask me, but there isn't any reason the frequencies can't be quite good.
 
drum118 said:
Dundas doesn't justify a subway now nor 25 year from now past 427. You think Sheppard is bad for ridership and operating cost, Dundas well be at least 3 times worse.

An BRT past Mavis Rd is pushing it and not past 403. A BRT has been in Halton Master plan well over 2 decades, but no density along it now nor 25 years down the road.

Ridership on Dundas falls off at Mavis and more so at Erin Mills.

I guess people haven't seen or look at Phoenix LRT. If you did, you would see its almost 30 miles long with the opening of 2 mile extension in May and the line will see 2 more extension by 2025. The line carries 50,000 rider a day today, considering this a 2030 number. Service is every 15 minutes with 2 100' LRV and sees a few 3 car trains at peak time as well for special events. It takes you 90 minutes to go from end to end before the opening of the new extension. Density is very low for most of the route.

Stops are miles apart, with some under a mile in the city downtown area.

Can see LRT up to Mavis and BRT/express west of Mavis. Headway in Mississauga one thing and a longer headway in Halton.
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The ridership east of Hurontario is too high for BRT and too low for subway. LRT would be perfect, but I don't think there is much point building such a short LRT line either. Kipling to Hurontario is only 7km, and I don't think LRT is justified west of Hurontario. 7km line will have the same problem as 6km Sheppard Line. Stub of a line is not very useful.

I also think there is value in connecting the TTC subway system to the Hurontario LRT. The Hurontario LRT will be the only BRT/LRT in the GTA without a subway connection. That needs to be considered. For the sake of connectivity, I think it is worth it. For that same reason, I don't think forcing people to transfer at Mavis to get to the Hurontario LRT is a good idea either.

Phoenix LRT that is 30 miles long, with 50,000 boardings per day, is 1,000 boardings per km. The 1/101 Dundas/Express is 20,000 boardings over 15km, which is over 1,300 boardings per km. So essentially the 1/101 bus in Mississauga has better ridership than that Phoenix LRT. That LRT is not quite a role model. A BRT probably could have handled that ridership. No snow in Phoenix to interfere with the operation of articulated buses either.

I never understood the light rail obsession in the USA. Las Vegas has much better ridership than Phoenix, it's one of the best performing systems in the US, and it does it with buses only, no light rail. But unfortunately most the US follows the Phoenix model rather than the Las Vegas model. US overrates LRT, while Canada overrates BRT. US constantly overbuilds transit, while Canada constantly underbuilds, and the same thing is happening to Dundas East in Mississauga.
 
doady said:
The ridership east of Hurontario is too high for BRT and too low for subway. LRT would be perfect, but I don't think there is much point building such a short LRT line either. Kipling to Hurontario is only 7km, and I don't think LRT is justified west of Hurontario. 7km line will have the same problem as 6km Sheppard Line. Stub of a line is not very useful.

I also think there is value in connecting the TTC subway system to the Hurontario LRT. The Hurontario LRT will be the only BRT/LRT in the GTA without a subway connection. That needs to be considered. For the sake of connectivity, I think it is worth it. For that same reason, I don't think forcing people to transfer at Mavis to get to the Hurontario LRT is a good idea either.

Phoenix LRT that is 30 miles long, with 50,000 boardings per day, is 1,000 boardings per km. The 1/101 Dundas/Express is 20,000 boardings over 15km, which is over 1,300 boardings per km. So essentially the 1/101 bus in Mississauga has better ridership than that Phoenix LRT. That LRT is not quite a role model. A BRT probably could have handled that ridership. No snow in Phoenix to interfere with the operation of articulated buses either.

I never understood the light rail obsession in the USA. Las Vegas has much better ridership than Phoenix, it's one of the best performing systems in the US, and it does it with buses only, no light rail. But unfortunately most the US follows the Phoenix model rather than the Las Vegas model. US overrates LRT, while Canada overrates BRT. US constantly overbuilds transit, while Canada constantly underbuilds, and the same thing is happening to Dundas East in Mississauga.
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Light rail densifies corridors, costs less when used more, increases property values, and is generally significantly faster.

You also have to consider the demographics/economies of Phoenix, and Las Vegas. Vegas is a tourist city with a significant number of people living near or below the poverty line, Phoenix has its fair share of poverty as well but more people living there are in the middle-upper class, meaning they are fare more likely to drive. Phoenix also has less density in its core, so it makes sense that ridership is a bit worse there than in Las Vegas.
 
Streety McCarface said:
Light rail densifies corridors, costs less when used more, increases property values, and is generally significantly faster.

You also have to consider the demographics/economies of Phoenix, and Las Vegas. Vegas is a tourist city with a significant number of people living near or below the poverty line, Phoenix has its fair share of poverty as well but more people living there are in the middle-upper class, meaning they are fare more likely to drive. Phoenix also has less density in its core, so it makes sense that ridership is a bit worse there than in Las Vegas.
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The ridership of Phoenix isn't "a bit worse" than Las Vegas, it's a lot worse. Las Vegas has 66 million transit boardings annually and a population of 2.4 million while Phoenix has 71 million boardings and a population of 4.8 million. Las Vegas is one of the leaders in per capita transit ridership in the US, and they do it with buses only. I am not sure how much demographics are a factor when talking about transit ridership between different entire metropolitan areas.

It's only bus-based systems like Las Vegas, Seattle, Austin, Hartford, and Pittsburgh that are seeign ridership growth, while all of the rail-based systems in the US are losing ridership. The US systems made a mistake assuming rail is more attractive than bus. Rail follows ridership, not the other way around.

People should look at the ridership of the US systems that have at least 60km of light rail or subway and compare them to Mississauga:

MARTA (Atlanta): 115 million boardings
RTD (Denver): 98 million
Trimet (Portland): 97 million
MTA (Baltimore): 95 million
San Diego MTS: 85 million
Dallas Area Rapid Transit: 60 million
MiWay (Mississauga): 55 million
UTA (Salt Lake City): 44 million
Metrolink (St. Louis): 37 million
Sacramento RTD: 21 million

MiWay's ridership is forecast to grow by 15% in the next 4 years to around 63 million boardings, surpassing DART (149.7 km of light rail) and approaching the San Diego MTS (86.1 km of light rail). The time to build Dundas BRT was 30 years ago and I think that time is past. It's not a minor corridor for some small transit system anymore. This BRT that Metrolinx is pushing is all about Halton's needs, nothing to do with what Mississauga needs.
 
Towered said:
Would it be true BRT, in it's own separated ROW?
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I can't see that happening between Confederation and Cawthra without some expropriation for ROW widening. The main problem is probably going to be properties with buildings right up to the lot line between Confed and Hurontario - though none are in particularly great shape.

AoD
 
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