Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Wrong. Most people do not follow things closely and hear subway and say "Ya I'm for subways". They all think its going to hit their area. They may not even be aware that LRT hits more stops etc. Councillors always count on their residents not following politics closely. Its why Mammoliti always gets back in. He actually states his residents do no want the LRT and will wait for subways. Has anyone taken a poll about that?

Wrong. If the residents did not care either way, the councillors wouldn't care either.

Mammoliti isn't a valid example. He is a bit odd, to put it very mildly, but he is a loner. It is obvious that he achieved nothing so far, at least on the transit file.

One councillor can be just odd and keep pushing ideas that nobody else wants to support. But when a group of 5 or 6 councillors push the same idea, that must be for a reason.

 

[ShonTron]

Wrong. If the residents did not care either way, the councillors wouldn't care either.

Mammoliti isn't a valid example. He is a bit odd, to put it very mildly, but he is a loner. It is obvious that he achieved nothing so far, at least on the transit file.

One councillor can be just odd and keep pushing ideas that nobody else wants to support. But when a group of 5 or 6 councillors push the same idea, that must be for a reason.

There was once such loner on council until he ran for mayor, and won, in 2010. Mammo is a kook, but he can still be dangerous.

 

[Voltz]

LRT plans were publisized well before 2013, Miller was the Mayor at that time, and the residents certainly had an option to understand what he wants to build in the SRT corridor.

If they did not get sold on that, then perhaps they have a reason.

People were sold on the LRT plans for the RT replacement back when Miller was Mayor, there was no clamouring for a Subway instead, and council approved it and "made a decision".

When Stintz and GDB decided to use the SSE for their election campaigns their was not a large public awareness of the previous LRT plans and few knew that they were being lied to.

I don't get where you are getting this idea from that the public was well aware of the options and had made a well informed decision in favour of one Subway stop vs 2-3 LRT lines.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

People were sold on the LRT plans for the RT replacement back when Miller was Mayor, there was no clamouring for a Subway instead, and council approved it and "made a decision".

When Stintz and GDB decided to use the SSE for their election campaigns their was not a large public awareness of the previous LRT plans and few knew that they were being lied to.

I don't get where you are getting this idea from that the public was well aware of the options and had made a well informed decision in favour of one Subway stop vs 2-3 LRT lines.

Never heard full scale battles over the LRT like this until 2009 or so. Back 10 years ago everyone was fine with transit city.

 

[OneCity]

Never heard full scale battles over the LRT like this until 2009 or so. Back 10 years ago everyone was fine with transit city.

Everything was assumed to be fine, because Scarborough voices are not fairly presented. We had a pro-downtown Mayor and media not listening to the preference of the majority of people in the area most impacted. The Mayors and all other upper Gov't reps since the last 2 elections clearly got the memo to join the large amount of voices being drowned. And what wasn't obvious, came out vigorously in the next two elections as the apathy and ignorance had gone on for long enough it was ripe for Political picking . Whether or not most Scarborough people agreed with blanket subway or not, their voices were finally being acknowledged. This cant be understated

Again we need to get off the blanket LRT vs. Subway debate. This debate is ridiculous on both sides. Scarborough deserves a design with better integration, and extensive local extension and this City needs to learn to grow together. TC had some great parts, the Subway plan had some great parts. Most people just don't want a "band-aid" or a full "standalone network". Build a proper and equitable foundation first.

The lack of understanding of why this Political shift occurred is a clear indicator of how far from reality the narrative being told is. Now that the vault is fully open, these Politics are not going away until bridges are built. Ford took a sledge hammer to the one sided party, which even I would agree was disturbing in many ways, but at the same time it was necessary to end this nonsense. The media now has to realize that the bias once used to rally their base and now rallying a different one, on the opposite end and that base is sizable enough to receive heavy Political representation. Democracy at work, and its time to learn to work together.

This never goes over well in this forum. But it is what it is and its not going anywhere as we now have concerned residents, community and business leaders who have also spent years developing a plan to put an end to this and are also very well supported, and are now beginning to mobilize to get the voices heard. I'm optimistic for the future of the entire City if we stay on the course we are on and people can slowly accept the need to work together.

 

[Cobra]

Never heard full scale battles over the LRT like this until 2009 or so. Back 10 years ago everyone was fine with transit city.

Fine is an exaggeration, it was public knowledge that there were complains over Transit City but Giambrone was adamant at not listening to the feedback and to proceed as planned. Sheppard East was the most vocal anti-TC group and made the news.

Put that in reverse for the Scarborough Subway and the Toronto Star are doing the lion share of the noise and complaining digging for anyone who's against it. Anti-Transit City people didn't have much media coverage besides the Toronto Sun until Ford came along.

 

[Forgotten]

When will they be studying the Midland and SRT subway alignments? (Which Planning unjustly quashed at the get-go to protect John Tory)

 

[nfitz]

Everything was assumed to be fine, because Scarborough voices are not fairly presented. ...

You seem to be unaware of what actually happened, years before you came here.

The final vote on this project during the Miller years, was on June 8, 2010. The vote was 38-1 in favour, with only councillor Rob Ford dissenting. All 10 Scarborough councillors were present and voted in voted in favour of the project. The project was described as:

1. City Council approve the following:

a. Conversion of the existing Scarborough Rapid Transit line (Kennedy Station to McCowan Station) to use Transit City Light Rail Transit (LRT) vehicles.
b. Extension of the Scarborough Rapid Transit from McCowan Road to Malvern Town Centre, including the alignment, stations, passenger pick-up and drop-off facilities and bus terminals.
c. An underground non-revenue service connection to the Sheppard East Maintenance and Storage Facility.
d. Protection for the future Bellamy Maintenance and Storage Facility.
e. An amendment to the approved Scarborough-Malvern LRT Environmental Project Report (EPR) to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately west of Midland Avenue.
f. An amendment to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT EPR to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately east of Ionview Road.
​

I'm not sure why you are trying to retcon this. It's not like they took a vote one day, this followed 4 years of discussion of whether they should upgrade the existing SRT equipment, convert to LRT, or build a subway.

 

[OneCity]

You seem to be unaware of what actually happened, years before you came here.

The final vote on this project during the Miller years, was on June 8, 2010. The vote was 38-1 in favour, with only councillor Rob Ford dissenting. All 10 Scarborough councillors were present and voted in voted in favour of the project. The project was described as:

1. City Council approve the following:

a. Conversion of the existing Scarborough Rapid Transit line (Kennedy Station to McCowan Station) to use Transit City Light Rail Transit (LRT) vehicles.
b. Extension of the Scarborough Rapid Transit from McCowan Road to Malvern Town Centre, including the alignment, stations, passenger pick-up and drop-off facilities and bus terminals.
c. An underground non-revenue service connection to the Sheppard East Maintenance and Storage Facility.
d. Protection for the future Bellamy Maintenance and Storage Facility.
e. An amendment to the approved Scarborough-Malvern LRT Environmental Project Report (EPR) to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately west of Midland Avenue.
f. An amendment to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT EPR to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately east of Ionview Road.
​

I'm not sure why you are trying to retcon this. It's not like they took a vote one day, this followed 4 years of discussion of whether they should upgrade the existing SRT equipment, convert to LRT, or build a subway.

I am fully aware. But this came after Scarborough councils first preference of Subway to SCC was completely denied for the second time in history. At this point what were the local Politicians to do other than just tagging along to get something built for this massively neglected area whether attention to detail was considered, as they already knew it was already known this wasn't the highly supported. But no one outside Scarborough ever gave a damn

Not much you can do otherwise as you need to try to keep relationship open with the Mayor in power. As Ive said TC was not without any merit, it just wasn't the preferred choice. Also how would they have been treated in the media had the carried on? It took someone to call out what residents have been complaining about forever. Not sure it could be any more clear now, if it isnt im not sure it ever will.

Scarborough has thankfully received the opportunity to let their wishes be known again. And here we are. This is certainly not a new phenomenon

 

[OneCity]

When will they be studying the Midland and SRT subway alignments? (Which Planning unjustly quashed at the get-go to protect John Tory)

Supposed to be in the delayed report. As requested by Tory

 

[nfitz]

I am fully aware. But this came after Scarborough councils first preference of Subway to SCC was completely denied for the second time in history.

This just isn't true. Scarborough councillors agreed that dozens of LRT stops was a better option than 3-4 subway stations (and now we are talking about just one!). And that was what ... 2005? 2006?

Not much you can do otherwise as you need to try to keep relationship open with the Mayor in power.

A mayor near the end of his term, who wasn't running for re-election? I'm not buying it.

Scarborough has thankfully received the opportunity to let their wishes be known again. And here we are.

Here we are, spending over $4 billion for one station, not including any new rolling stock, compared to the $190 million plan TTC approved in 2006 to convert the existing SRT to handle longer trains, and longer ART Mark II cars..

It's beyond absurd. And many in Scarborough agree.

 

[OneCity]

This just isn't true. Scarborough councillors agreed that dozens of LRT stops was a better option than 3-4 subway stations (and now we are talking about just one!). And that was what ... 2005? 2006?

A mayor near the end of his term, who wasn't running for re-election? I'm not buying it.

Here we are, spending over $4 billion for one station, not including any new rolling stock, compared to the $190 million plan TTC approved in 2006 to convert the existing SRT to handle longer trains, and longer ART Mark II cars..

It's beyond absurd. And many in Scarborough agree.

Put it on the election ballot. We could argue all day, but your are reliving the glory years of poor representation for Scarborough. The apathy amongst residents was huge at this point.

Now Scarborough voters have Mayoral "champions" to turn to and transfer LRT candidates would receive very little support out here. It's Tory or Ford out here, and Tory needs the SSE vote to have any chance.

Guildwood and Malvern (like 95% of candidates support subway) both supporting pro subway candidates recently. Neither are near the subway. Hopefully that gives you a better idea of what Sheppard west and Scarborough Centre support. its not even close IMO and never was if the people had been represented.

The vault is opened now. I dont see us ever going back

 

[OneCity]

Absolute apathy. Scarborough wants Subway to it's City Centre. @nfitz To make your argument you are using a tiny window in history and the exception to the big picture. You referenced Scarborough Council votes immediately following the rejection of their MAIN preference under an unsupported admin. This is not reflective of the real majority sentiment of Scarborough. It couldn't be more clear if we listened and followed the full history


http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml

1973

"When the Scarborough Town Centre was opened in 1973, what was then the Borough of Scarborough hoped that the shopping mall and neighbouring civic buildings would become the core of its new downtown. However, with Metro Council only just voting that the eastern terminus of the BLOOR-DANFORTH subway be extended to Kennedy and Eglinton Avenues, there was still a gap of miles between the end of mass transit and the beginning of Scarborough's downtown dreams. Scarborough officials wanted a further extension of the subway, but the TTC looked at the costs involved and decided that a cheaper project was needed."

Missed opportunity.


2003

"Considering that the costs for maintaining the current system or upgrading it to handle Mark II ICTS equipment were so high, the TTC commissioned an engineering study in October 2005 to assess its full range of options. One possibility was to scrap the SCARBOROUGH RT altogether and replace it with an extension of the BLOOR-DANFORTH subway, a possibility that Scarborough politicians applauded.."

The preference is crushed again here comes "LRT, LRT, LRT" Transit City

2010

On the backs of frustrated inner suburban residents who voice have been drowned by those that are adamant know what good for others came Rob Ford. Soon after Federal Conservatives, and Provincial Liberals change support and begin to use it for gain

2014

Needing every last bit if support from the SSE to limp past Doug Ford came John Tory

The issue is now visibly out on the table and not so easy to wash over anymore. The City is now far better off to learning to promote all areas and working together.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Everything was assumed to be fine, because Scarborough voices are not fairly presented. We had a pro-downtown Mayor and media not listening to the preference of the majority of people in the area most impacted. The Mayors and all other upper Gov't reps since the last 2 elections clearly got the memo to join the large amount of voices being drowned. And what wasn't obvious, came out vigorously in the next two elections as the apathy and ignorance had gone on for long enough it was ripe for Political picking . Whether or not most Scarborough people agreed with blanket subway or not, their voices were finally being acknowledged. This cant be understated

Again we need to get off the blanket LRT vs. Subway debate. This debate is ridiculous on both sides. Scarborough deserves a design with better integration, and extensive local extension and this City needs to learn to grow together. TC had some great parts, the Subway plan had some great parts. Most people just don't want a "band-aid" or a full "standalone network". Build a proper and equitable foundation first.

The lack of understanding of why this Political shift occurred is a clear indicator of how far from reality the narrative being told is. Now that the vault is fully open, these Politics are not going away until bridges are built. Ford took a sledge hammer to the one sided party, which even I would agree was disturbing in many ways, but at the same time it was necessary to end this nonsense. The media now has to realize that the bias once used to rally their base and now rallying a different one, on the opposite end and that base is sizable enough to receive heavy Political representation. Democracy at work, and its time to learn to work together.

This never goes over well in this forum. But it is what it is and its not going anywhere as we now have concerned residents, community and business leaders who have also spent years developing a plan to put an end to this and are also very well supported, and are now beginning to mobilize to get the voices heard. I'm optimistic for the future of the entire City if we stay on the course we are on and people can slowly accept the need to work together.

Fine is an exaggeration, it was public knowledge that there were complains over Transit City but Giambrone was adamant at not listening to the feedback and to proceed as planned. Sheppard East was the most vocal anti-TC group and made the news.

Put that in reverse for the Scarborough Subway and the Toronto Star are doing the lion share of the noise and complaining digging for anyone who's against it. Anti-Transit City people didn't have much media coverage besides the Toronto Sun until Ford came along.

You seem to be unaware of what actually happened, years before you came here.

The final vote on this project during the Miller years, was on June 8, 2010. The vote was 38-1 in favour, with only councillor Rob Ford dissenting. All 10 Scarborough councillors were present and voted in voted in favour of the project. The project was described as:

1. City Council approve the following:

a. Conversion of the existing Scarborough Rapid Transit line (Kennedy Station to McCowan Station) to use Transit City Light Rail Transit (LRT) vehicles.
b. Extension of the Scarborough Rapid Transit from McCowan Road to Malvern Town Centre, including the alignment, stations, passenger pick-up and drop-off facilities and bus terminals.
c. An underground non-revenue service connection to the Sheppard East Maintenance and Storage Facility.
d. Protection for the future Bellamy Maintenance and Storage Facility.
e. An amendment to the approved Scarborough-Malvern LRT Environmental Project Report (EPR) to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately west of Midland Avenue.
f. An amendment to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT EPR to provide an underground connection to Kennedy Station, via a portal located immediately east of Ionview Road.
​

I'm not sure why you are trying to retcon this. It's not like they took a vote one day, this followed 4 years of discussion of whether they should upgrade the existing SRT equipment, convert to LRT, or build a subway.

So like I said, it was a few people. It was the Fords who whipped up this nonsense. There was nothing wrong with transit city, but we're here now.

 

[nfitz]

Put it on the election ballot. We could argue all day, but your are reliving the glory years of poor representation for Scarborough.

That would be a terrible delay. Particularly given the incoming provincial government may well be one that's more likely to cancel subways than build them.

I dont see us ever going back

We've got more cancelled projects than completed projects. This particularly project, years from even starting, with increasing costs, and decreasing scope, would I think be a prime target of an incoming Tory government, given their history, and the lack of Tory support in that part of the province.