Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

So like I said, it was a few people. It was the Fords who whipped up this nonsense. There was nothing wrong with transit city, but we're here now.

Transit City was flawed. But to claim it wasnt is a Downtown tale. We are far better off now for the long run. Band-aids are not acceptable no mater how long we have neglected our inner suburbs. Details as to what other area have and integration to its own City should matter.

I do believe Transit City would have have a good chance to be constructed had McGuinty funded it in full but it had no chance in the state it was in. Ford took advantage and just did what enough people wanted him to do. Acknowledge them and their concerns. The funded TC left large areas out, the transfer to SCC was never welcomed at all, and the extra transfer on Sheppard was not received by many either and rightfully so. And Ford stood up to represent these people whos leaders had gave up after being rejected once again and just wanted to see something built. Now they are rejuvenated to fight for the residents again with the support coming from above and now in the Mayoral platform. This support from the top of the City and Province towards Scarborough is long overdue.

Scarborough has waited long enough anyway, the foundation is way more important and the SSE and Eglinton LRT extension will be great start if we can move it forward. And if you look close most Politicians, Community, Business, and University leaders support it. Time to build.

@nfitz Re: your comment below. I don't like what Ford represented as a person either, not one bit, but I completely understand his Politics. Forget about his personal life for a second. If we have given someone with Politics like this even the slightest opportunity to win, we are clearly not listening to way too many voices and have done something wrong. I don't need to look back and I think the Downtown Left (as well as all of us) is actually lucky to have Tory right now until this is neglect has been resolved. They should also probably relax on their heavy handed biased views before those politics rear their ugly head next election.

 

[Cobra]

There was nothing wrong with transit city

Sheppard East:

• Too Slow
• Too many stops
• TTC unwilling to run bus service on Sheppard East for local stops, that was their justification for all those stops and the slow service
• No one trusted the TTC to manage the priority lighting they were promising would keep the service reliable and avoid bunching
• People wanted more grade separation at major intersections
• Stops were very "basic" to most people liking, poor protection vs. elements

In a nutshell, officials could barely hide the middle finger when the LRT was being criticized.
"45-50 minutes from Morningside to Don Mills?" People were actually giggling during the presentation.
"Billions for that? Just make the make the buses have their own lanes or add express buses" others said
"Other world class city have them? That's no LRT but a streetcar you're spending on" most agreed...

Crosstown East of Don Mills
While most wanted a subway or the LRT underground, lots of people were puzzled as to why they were operating that stretch of the line like Spadina or St.Clair and not as an elevated line. Others we're upset at officials mentioning that trains would be short turn for the underground section, especially when there was an accident at grade...conveniently in Scarborough. It gave the bad optics of a 2 tiers service between Scarborough and Toronto.

There was plenty wrong with that one.

Scarborough LRT

You can't blame locals to distrust the city and TTC after the shameful neglect after all these years. Comments I heard the most was

• It's ground hound day! Another new technology for Toronto that will breakdown just as fast as the SRT.
• The ridiculous transfer is till there
• The same pointless route is there
• Why no subways after the SRT failure, now we'll be stuck on buses for years like cattle
• etc...

Not that I agree with all the criticism but at the very least, I understand it. But again, Transit City officials and Giambrone at the time wouldn't listen. People actually tried to bring constructive criticism and solutions like reconfiguring Kennedy station to facilitate the transfer but hey, they wouldn't listen.

If the SRT wasn't neglected and they had work on a way to minimize the transfer, we wouldn't be here today and it would be a hell lot cheaper than this 1 stop subway. Sorry but I get mad when people point figures at the population when they make valid points.

Transit City wasn't perfect but there was room for improvements. Unfortunately, Miller-Giambrone wouldn't have it and people started to get vocal when Miller got weakened by his poor handling of the garbage crisis. Then he quit, Giambrone was caught in a scandal and Ford started to back subway projects. Transit City was done

It's not that people had accepted Transit City but until Miller quit, it was clear in most people's mind that he'd be re-elected and his project would go through. Once it started to be obvious there was going to be a change at city Hall, people got way more vocal.

 

[nfitz]

"45-50 minutes from Morningside to Don Mills?" People were actually giggling during the presentation.

Where are you getting 45-50 minutes? The average speed was 22.5 km/hr. It's about 12 km from Don Mills station to Morningside. That's 32 minutes. We discussed this extensively in the Sheppard East LRT thread.

"Billions for that? Just make the make the buses have their own lanes or add express buses" others said

It wasn't billions. You are pulling this out of your imagination.

The ridiculous transfer is till there

Not true. The transfer became a short cross-platform transfer, rather than a long, long climb from the depths of Don Mills station to the bus platforms.

More to the point ... there's never been ANY plan by anyone for subway on Sheppard east of McCowan. So you are still stuck on the bus. You are still stuck with a transfer.

Even subway on this route is very unlikely, given the ridership estimates. At least the Danforth extension has a moderate ridership.

So really, you've replaced a 32-minute LRT with a 50-minute bus ride.

 

[OneCity]

More to the point ... there's never been ANY plan by anyone for subway on Sheppard east of McCowan. So you are still stuck on the bus. You are still stuck with a transfer.

A band-aid for "East of McCowan" was not acceptable. They will have a very short bus ride to the subway and we can extend out as soon as we can once we lay the proper foundation. These voters also supported this if you watched the bi-election results. Overall residents West of McCowan were none too pleased with the extra transfer.

We have a much more thoughtful plan to move forward with now based on a more united voice from Scarborough.

 

[Cobra]

Where are you getting 45-50 minutes? The average speed was 22.5 km/hr. It's about 12 km from Don Mills station to Morningside. That's 32 minutes. We discussed this extensively in the Sheppard East LRT thread.

Well I was there and people kept pointing out that 32 minutes was a best case scenario. They were asked questions regarding speed, accidents, and other unforeseen events related to running a line at-grade (jaywalkers, accidents, weather, traffic lights, stupid drivers, automation of the line). They had no choice to admit that 32 minutes was "best case scenario" and it was realistic to say it would be more in the 40min range than 30min after pressing them long enough.

It wasn't billions. You are pulling this out of your imagination.

Nobody bought that it wouldn't go over a billion. That's TTC historic poor handling of projects.

Not true. The transfer became a short cross-platform transfer, rather than a long, long climb from the depths of Don Mills station to the bus platforms.

I was referring to the SRT for the transfer.

 

[nfitz]

A band-aid for "East of McCowan" was not acceptable. They will have a very short bus ride to the subway and we can extend out as soon as we can once we lay the proper foundation. These voters also supported this if you watched the bi-election results. Overall residents West of McCowan were none too pleased.

Extend the subway? You have to be kidding. Besides, it makes more sense to take it north to Malvern, not east to Morningside.

If residents are displeased it's because they were lied to. They have no hope of subway on Sheppard - maybe there's a long-shot at extending it to Victoria Park.

 

[nfitz]

Well I was there and people kept pointing out that 32 minutes was a best case scenario. They were asked questions regarding speed, accidents, and other unforeseen events related to running a line at-grade (jaywalkers, accidents, weather, traffic lights, stupid drivers, automation of the line). They had no choice to admit that 32 minutes was "best case scenario" and it was realistic to say it would be more in the 40min range than 30min after pressing them long enough.

You've knocked 5-10 minutes on what you claimed already. 8 minutes extra travel time because of jaywalkers and accidents? On such days, the bus would be even more delayed ...

 

[OneCity]

Extend the subway? You have to be kidding. Besides, it makes more sense to take it north to Malvern, not east to Morningside.

If residents are displeased it's because they were lied to. They have no hope of subway on Sheppard - maybe there's a long-shot at extending it to Victoria Park.

We'll see and I never said what will happen on Sheppard. If you know for certain then kudos you're a fortune teller. At this stage all we can do is guess on this one. I just explained the issue and why its being reconsidered. And the Vic Park subway extension idea would never fly in this climate. It Agincourt thru to SSE or itll be LRT/BRT

I certainly have my gut feeling how Malvern will be connected in the future but itll come after the funding for the latest renditions of the SSE and Eglinton Crosstown East is finalized first. The goal is to get the shovel in for these two plans and then layout the next phase.

 

[Cobra]

You've knocked 5-10 minutes on what you claimed already. 8 minutes extra travel time because of jaywalkers and accidents? On such days, the bus would be even more delayed ...

The person at the presentation did, not me.

I don't disagree that buses wouldn't do better. Just pointing out that no efforts were made to take people's feedback under consideration.

Lots of the ideas/solutions proposed were just dismissed and they were valid. Why is cutting a few stops to speed up the line and running and 85 bus every 30mins for local stops so extreme?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Where are you getting 45-50 minutes? The average speed was 22.5 km/hr. It's about 12 km from Don Mills station to Morningside. That's 32 minutes. We discussed this extensively in the Sheppard East LRT thread.

There is no way that the SELRT would be that fast. The passengers will always find a way to make the trip longer...even with all door boarding

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Transit City was flawed. But to claim it wasnt is a Downtown tale. We are far better off now for the long run. Band-aids are not acceptable no mater how long we have neglected our inner suburbs. Details as to what other area have and integration to its own City should matter.

I do believe Transit City would have have a good chance to be constructed had McGuinty funded it in full but it had no chance in the state it was in. Ford took advantage and just did what enough people wanted him to do. Acknowledge them and their concerns. The funded TC left large areas out, the transfer to SCC was never welcomed at all, and the extra transfer on Sheppard was not received by many either and rightfully so. And Ford stood up to represent these people whos leaders had gave up after being rejected once again and just wanted to see something built. Now they are rejuvenated to fight for the residents again with the support coming from above and now in the Mayoral platform. This support from the top of the City and Province towards Scarborough is long overdue.

Scarborough has waited long enough anyway, the foundation is way more important and the SSE and Eglinton LRT extension will be great start if we can move it forward. And if you look close most Politicians, Community, Business, and University leaders support it. Time to build.

@nfitz Re: your comment below. I don't like what Ford represented as a person either, not one bit, but I completely understand his Politics. Forget about his personal life for a second. If we have given someone with Politics like this even the slightest opportunity to win, we are clearly not listening to way too many voices and have done something wrong. I don't need to look back and I think the Downtown Left (as well as all of us) is actually lucky to have Tory right now until this is neglect has been resolved. They should also probably relax on their heavy handed biased views before those politics rear their ugly head next election.

Sheppard East:

• Too Slow
• Too many stops
• TTC unwilling to run bus service on Sheppard East for local stops, that was their justification for all those stops and the slow service
• No one trusted the TTC to manage the priority lighting they were promising would keep the service reliable and avoid bunching
• People wanted more grade separation at major intersections
• Stops were very "basic" to most people liking, poor protection vs. elements

In a nutshell, officials could barely hide the middle finger when the LRT was being criticized.
"45-50 minutes from Morningside to Don Mills?" People were actually giggling during the presentation.
"Billions for that? Just make the make the buses have their own lanes or add express buses" others said
"Other world class city have them? That's no LRT but a streetcar you're spending on" most agreed...

Crosstown East of Don Mills
While most wanted a subway or the LRT underground, lots of people were puzzled as to why they were operating that stretch of the line like Spadina or St.Clair and not as an elevated line. Others we're upset at officials mentioning that trains would be short turn for the underground section, especially when there was an accident at grade...conveniently in Scarborough. It gave the bad optics of a 2 tiers service between Scarborough and Toronto.

There was plenty wrong with that one.

Scarborough LRT

You can't blame locals to distrust the city and TTC after the shameful neglect after all these years. Comments I heard the most was

• It's ground hound day! Another new technology for Toronto that will breakdown just as fast as the SRT.
• The ridiculous transfer is till there
• The same pointless route is there
• Why no subways after the SRT failure, now we'll be stuck on buses for years like cattle
• etc...

Not that I agree with all the criticism but at the very least, I understand it. But again, Transit City officials and Giambrone at the time wouldn't listen. People actually tried to bring constructive criticism and solutions like reconfiguring Kennedy station to facilitate the transfer but hey, they wouldn't listen.

If the SRT wasn't neglected and they had work on a way to minimize the transfer, we wouldn't be here today and it would be a hell lot cheaper than this 1 stop subway. Sorry but I get mad when people point figures at the population when they make valid points.

Transit City wasn't perfect but there was room for improvements. Unfortunately, Miller-Giambrone wouldn't have it and people started to get vocal when Miller got weakened by his poor handling of the garbage crisis. Then he quit, Giambrone was caught in a scandal and Ford started to back subway projects. Transit City was done

It's not that people had accepted Transit City but until Miller quit, it was clear in most people's mind that he'd be re-elected and his project would go through. Once it started to be obvious there was going to be a change at city Hall, people got way more vocal.

All of this was much faster then the streetcars downtown. Plus the Scarborough LRT was merged with the Eglinton Line, which Ford liked. This was all politics and racheted up to 11 by the ford family. There was no need for the past 7 years to happen.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A band-aid for "East of McCowan" was not acceptable. They will have a very short bus ride to the subway and we can extend out as soon as we can once we lay the proper foundation. These voters also supported this if you watched the bi-election results. Overall residents West of McCowan were none too pleased with the extra transfer.

We have a much more thoughtful plan to move forward with now based on a more united voice from Scarborough.

The subway was not for east of McCowan. This is all about central Scarborough. Malvern, Port Union, Highland Creek etc will not benefit from this. That's what the Scarborough East LRT is for.

 

[Rainforest]

People were sold on the LRT plans for the RT replacement back when Miller was Mayor, there was no clamouring for a Subway instead, and council approved it and "made a decision".

When Stintz and GDB decided to use the SSE for their election campaigns their was not a large public awareness of the previous LRT plans and few knew that they were being lied to.

I don't get where you are getting this idea from that the public was well aware of the options and had made a well informed decision in favour of one Subway stop vs 2-3 LRT lines.

Then, I don't get what is your idea of properly making the public aware of a transit initiative, or any policy initiative for that matter.

The LRT plan was a signature plan of TTC at the time, fully supported by the Mayor and the TTC Chair, presented in the media and on its own website.

 

[Cobra]

All of this was much faster then the streetcars downtown. Plus the Scarborough LRT was merged with the Eglinton Line, which Ford liked. This was all politics and racheted up to 11 by the ford family. There was no need for the past 7 years to happen.

Spadina was initially supposed to be rapid transit and it failed. No?

It was Ford that merged the line. Initially, SLRT and Eglinton we're completely separate

 

[Rainforest]

If the opponents of SSE believe that they have a better plan than the subway extension, then they should field their candidates in the local Scarborough ridings for the next municipal elections. That's less than 2 years from now.

Either way, that will give some answers. If the pro-LRT candidates win, that may be a sign that the course should be changed. If they do not win but finish strong second, that's still a point in the debate. On the other hand, if they fail to attract a substantial number of votes, we will have a proof that the subway option remains more popular.