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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

r
APTA-2048 said:
Sorry, but rehashing a persecution complex and media conspiracy is not what I'd call wholesome or rational discussion. Advocate for the subway, sure, but don't look completely out to lunch doing it. Other pro-subway members seem to be able to do that.
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Listen. It wouldn't even be a major issue blown up here if it wasn't attacked as "paranoia", "Trump" or as you now chimed in with "out to lunch". Media Bias towards Scarborough is a real thing, and its an unfortunate view myself and many others in Scarborough don't take kindly too and has been a problem long before Trump. I wont stoop to name calling but I will defend my views.

It's only one part of the debate but it does matter because since the overall Scarborough view is not fairly discussed in the media therefore we have the divisive Politics we have today. And that is very relevant to how transit will be decided. Always has been always will.

Its also clear by how some posters attack this view with such personal vile that there is a problem with how information is provided in this City and how foreign this discussion is. Thankfully we have many community leaders, business leasers, Politicians with the leadership of Rotary club working very hard for years and now with the City media to make inroads have this problem addressed. It's already not as bad as it once was. i.e) When a murder or accident happens it North York it's reported as the actually area or intersection i.e) Jane and Finch, when it happened at Kingston and Galloway it was reported as Scarborough. What hasn't improved yet Is the areas of the City the media mainly represents and it has a powerful platform which drowns out any chance of a Scarborough centric view, or details to be discussed. This has created serious apathy and has spurred the political division.

A few posters here took offense to me calling out polls from our media outlets as biased. That's completely fine, it crazy to me that people trust the outlets behind these polling companies as anything but political. But hey that's your prerogative, I can respect that, I just disagreed and provided some reasoning. Again only another factor affecting this debate but not grounds for name calling and disrespect.

Its unfortunate & even more sad to see people bully this view so vigorously but aside from the real hateful comments from only a couple posters I do get the lack of understanding , as I said I grew in many other Cities in the GTA, lived downtown for years before moving to Scarborough and was an still am Left leaning in most ways. I thought totally different years ago as I do now. I had no idea, but I truly have never seen such an area or City ignored. With diverse needs blatantly ignored and major decisions dictated to from areas outsides its insanity & has been very damaging.

The City needs bridges in many ways and that why we do see a lot of support for the SSE. Even moreso for a 3-4 stop which will be the only likely competition out here come election time to the current ST & the 1 stop plan. But the 7 stop LRT in all the limelight it still receives is a certainly a distant third.
 
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Rainforest said:
At least, OneCity is posting on the subject of transit.

You, on the other hand, pulled the new POTUS into this thread. And that guy certainly had no relation whatsoever with the Toronto transit matters.
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Every time OneCity pulls out his "everyone vs Scarborough" antics he deserves to be called out on it, as this is exactly the tactic Trump uses. And, the two have in common something else: they call out polls they don't like as "fake news" or "biased". That deserves to be called out as well.

The thing that he refuses to acknowledge is not that everyone is against Scarborough, it's that the majority in this city that are angry that their precious tax dollars are being squandered on the massive overbuild that is called the Scarborough subway extension. This is a transit line that is so far over expectations in cost, so amazingly under-delivers in transit service in that borough, and is so amazingly far out of whack with the population density any rational person knows justify a subway.

Failing to acknowledge the fact of insufficient population density in Scarborough to warrant any subway (let alone on that is so amazingly inflated in cost), he resorts to the Trump strategy: the enemy is everyone and everyone is against Scarborough.

That won't fly!!!!

It's not personal. It's calling out irrationality.
 
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OneCity said:
r

Listen. It wouldn't even be a major issue blown up here if it wasn't attacked as "paranoia", "Trump" or as you now chimed in with "out to lunch". Media Bias towards Scarborough is a real thing, and its an unfortunate view myself and many others in Scarborough don't take kindly too and has been a problem long before Trump.

It's only one part of the debate but it does matter because since the overall Scarborough view is not fairly discussed in the media therefore we have the divisive Politics we have today. And that is very relevant to how transit will be decided. Always has been always will.

Its also clear by how some posters attack this view with such personal vile that there is a problem with in information is provided and how foreign this idea is. Thankfully we have many community leaders, business leasers, Politicians with the help of Rotary club working with the media to make inroads have this problem addressed. It's already not as bad as it once was. i.e) When a murder or accident happens it North York it's reported as the actually area or intersection i.e) Jane and Finch, when it happened at Kingston and Galloway it was reported as Scarborough. What hasn't improved yet Is the areas of the City the media mainly represents and its powerful platform drowns out any chance of a Scarborough centric view, or details to be discussed. This has created serious apathy and has spurred the political division.

A few posters here took offense to me calling out polls from our media outlets as biased. That's completely fine, it crazy to me that people trust the outlets behind these polling companies as anything but political. But hey that's your prerogative, I can respect that, I just disagreed and provided some reasoning. Again only another factor affecting this debate. Lets stop the name calling and try to be more respectful.

Its unfortunate its not discusses in the media and even more sad to see people bully this view so vigorously but aside from the real hateful comments from only a couple posters. I do get the lack of understanding , as I said I grew in many other Cities in the GTA, lived downtown for years before moving to Scarborough and was an still am Left leaning in most ways. I thought totally different years ago as I do now. I had no idea, but I truly have never seen such an area or City with diverse needs so blatantly ignored and major decisions dictated to from areas outside.
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Yes, Scarborough has an unfairly gained unflattering reputation. But that's not a reason to build a subway there. You can make valid points about spurring development and improving the connection between city centres. But when you make arguments based on emotion and feelings, don't be surprised when people tune out.

And I'll say, I get the emotion. My family settled in Scarborough, I grew up there, and I still love spending time there despite living just across the river. But I want sound planing for Scarborough that's rational. Hell, I think we actually want the same thing.
 
APTA-2048 said:
Yes, Scarborough has an unfairly gained unflattering reputation. But that's not a reason to build a subway there. You can make valid points about spurring development and improving the connection between city centres. But when you make arguments based on emotion and feelings, don't be surprised when people tune out.

And I'll say, I get the emotion. My family settled in Scarborough, I grew up there, and I still love spending time there despite living just across the river. But I want sound planing for Scarborough that's rational. Hell, I think we actually want the same thing.
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Its not the reason and I never said that. What ive said is that the many reasons are being ignored and the media for the most part is only providing the reasons not to build it and telling Scarborough what is "sound". And they continue too . Like I said the media is just one problem but some posters heads explode at the thought of this being a real issue.

Believe it or not it is fueling our Politics and will continue to as long as we have one sided debates. I want, sound, fair, and detailed planning even if we are forced to lay the foundation slowly.

The greatest issue that trumps the "media bias:rolleyes:" or napkin plans is the lack of a reliable funding plan for the entire City. Lack of funds from the Fed for key projects has been a big part of the desire to cut corners.
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
People's minds can change. And that support is obviously for political reasons as well.
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I've changed my mind.
  1. First (about 2010 when I first started paying attention in detail) I was in favour of the B-D extension. Reviewing the 2006 TTC report, and realizing that it would add to congestion at Y-B, I went away from it.
  2. I did look at the Scarborough LRT, with the forced transfer at Kennedy. Either the transfer is annoying, and it will not be successful (won't take many out of their cars). Alternatively, the transfer will not be such a big deal, and then it will lead to the exact same Y-B congestion problems of the B-D extension. Either way you look at it, the SLRT plan was a badly flawed one.
  3. Next was the Ford-McGuinty compromise of a connected Scarborough Eglinton line. This was the best plan to date. It would split the transfers more evenly between Y-B and Y-E (and Eg. West). It would work very well with a DRL. It was the last time we actually had transit peace in the City. Sadly, a large group of Councillors and MPP's decided to defeat Ford at all costs, and this was one of the costs that we are living with now.
  4. When it appeared that no politician would support this Metrolinx endorsed Scar-Eg LRT plan, I thought the SmartSpur plan had some merit. SmartTrack trains running at 4 or 5 minute frequency to STC (and Malvern), interlined with train with 8 to 10 minute frequency from Markham and from Pickering. Unfortunately, it quickly became apparent that Metrolinx would not give the track space needed (or credit) for this plan, so it was killed before it really took off.
  5. My next plan was to have a separate elevated line from Scarborough to Downtown. It would follow the SRT route from Malvern to STC. It would make its way to the Don Valley (either along Ellesmere or Lawrence), briefly hit Leaside and continue down the Don Valley. This would likely be popular, but with the John Tory SmartTrack debacle, any new plan will be seen with great suspicion.
This leaves us with no really good plan for Scarborough. The SSE has flaws. The SLRT plan has huge flaws. The better plans cannot be considered because Toronto Councillor and MPP's have made a mess of things and refuse to allow better solutions.
 
BurlOak said:
I've changed my mind.
  1. First (about 2010 when I first started paying attention in detail) I was in favour of the B-D extension. Reviewing the 2006 TTC report, and realizing that it would add to congestion at Y-B, I went away from it.
  2. I did look at the Scarborough LRT, with the forced transfer at Kennedy. Either the transfer is annoying, and it will not be successful (won't take many out of their cars). Alternatively, the transfer will not be such a big deal, and then it will lead to the exact same Y-B congestion problems of the B-D extension. Either way you look at it, the SLRT plan was a badly flawed one.
  3. Next was the Ford-McGuinty compromise of a connected Scarborough Eglinton line. This was the best plan to date. It would split the transfers more evenly between Y-B and Y-E (and Eg. West). It would work very well with a DRL. It was the last time we actually had transit peace in the City. Sadly, a large group of Councillors and MPP's decided to defeat Ford at all costs, and this was one of the costs that we are living with now.
  4. When it appeared that no politician would support this Metrolinx endorsed Scar-Eg LRT plan, I thought the SmartSpur plan had some merit. SmartTrack trains running at 4 or 5 minute frequency to STC (and Malvern), interlined with train with 8 to 10 minute frequency from Markham and from Pickering. Unfortunately, it quickly became apparent that Metrolinx would not give the track space needed (or credit) for this plan, so it was killed before it really took off.
  5. My next plan was to have a separate elevated line from Scarborough to Downtown. It would follow the SRT route from Malvern to STC. It would make its way to the Don Valley (either along Ellesmere or Lawrence), briefly hit Leaside and continue down the Don Valley. This would likely be popular, but with the John Tory SmartTrack debacle, any new plan will be seen with great suspicion.
This leaves us with no really good plan for Scarborough. The SSE has flaws. The SLRT plan has huge flaws. The better plans cannot be considered because Toronto Councillor and MPP's have made a mess of things and refuse to allow better solutions.
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Exactly. At this point. There is no good deal we can have here. Closest to that is elevated subway (5) and the same for Sheppard, but that has not been floated yet.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Exactly. At this point. There is no good deal we can have here. Closest to that is elevated subway (5) and the same for Sheppard, but that has not been floated yet.
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And others would argue for something else.

The problem is that the SRT has been a thorn in Scarborough's side for so long, and so many ideas have been floating around that everyone just wants a solution to the problem.

Here are the solutions I have seen floating around:

1) new cars for the SRT. This would solve the obvious problems with the current line.

2) LRT/Streetcars serving the same stations. This is not a bad solution, except for that tight corner.

3) Bloor extension along the same ROW. Still have the curve to deal with.

4) Crosstown extension following a different route to STC. This is a good option, but still would require a transfer at Kennedy.

5) Bloor multi stop along an alternative route. This would make many people happy, but the costs are high.

6) 1 stop extension. This is the current plan.

Even with the subway extension, There has been talk of using a TBM, Cut-and-cover, and Elevating it. I personally am a fan of burring it. How? I don't know.

I think that 2/4/5 are the best options. Doing all three of those, in various ways would bring a lot of transit options to the area. If, however, they do 6, then put infill stations in later, that would be a good thing too. Extending Crosstown at least to Danforth, or even right to Kingston Rd would make a good start to bringing real transit options to Scarborough.

Until things are done, us armchair transit planners will argue what should be done where and how.
 
What would be a good non-subway solution is to have a real LRT network, beyond what even Transit City would've done. If the LRT took you directly to Pape (via Eglinton & Don Mills) as well as Yonge-Eglinton, then we'd have a very interesting proposition. But right now there are only two options, and SRT v.2 doesn't seem to provide much improvement compared to SRT v.1, unless your home or destination happens to be within walking distance of Sheppard & Progress (which applies to hardly anyone).
 
Rainforest said:
Of course, there was and there is a rational and factual debate. The pro-LRT side was never silenced, and was able to present their case numerous times.

Detractors from the "rational and factual" certainly exist - on both sides - but I don't believe they define the outcome.
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Well if people don't know that what one side was saying is BS and the other is not, then how can everyone be expected to make a fair decision?

I would not say the LRT side was not silenced, especially with that recent briefing note from the TTC that erroneously said going back to LRT would cost just as much as the Subway. There was no way that someone in the TTC didn't look at that note and think that something must be off about it. Much of what was claimed in it was already contradicted by the LRT plans already put together by Metrolinx and the TTC.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Not even all of the DRL will be undergound, especially north of Eglinton ave East.
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Nobody's planned that yet. Nobody's even thought of planning that yet.

Hopkins123 said:
Is High Park not one of the most desirable places in the City to live? I don't see those property owners of the single detached dwellings on Clendenan or Parkview complaining.
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Do you seriously think this kind of elevated subway for a block and a half is the same as this kind for several kilometers?
 
Voltz said:
I would not say the LRT side was not silenced, especially with that recent briefing note from the TTC that erroneously said going back to LRT would cost just as much as the Subway. There was no way that someone in the TTC didn't look at that note and think that something must be off about it. Much of what was claimed in it was already contradicted by the LRT plans already put together by Metrolinx and the TTC.
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Those plans were from 2013. So was the $1.8 billion cost figure that everyone kept using. It's not accurate to rely on the "completed on the same date as the subway" cost figure, but it's even more inaccurate to cite a figure that's obviously grown in the last three years - at least the $3 billion price tag has some factual basis.
 
amnesiajune said:
Do you seriously think this kind of elevated subway for a block and a half is the same as this kind for several kilometers?
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Elevated up McCowan is not my preferred choice, I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't be the end of the world if built up the corridor as an alternative to tunneling. Besides I think whatever they'd wind up building would look far more aesthetically appealing than that image of NYC's elevated subway. Probably closer to this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/4556479499_fd2ac9eb77.jpg
 
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