Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

That design funding is only for the segment between Pape and Osgoode.

It's for the entire Relief Line, from Bloor West to Sheppard via Donwtown; 24 km in total.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Nobody's planned that yet. Nobody's even thought of planning that yet.



Do you seriously think this kind of elevated subway for a block and a half is the same as this kind for several kilometers?

That project has $100 Million in design funding. So someone, somewhere has definitely done a lot more than thinking about planning it.

That design funding is only for the segment between Pape and Osgoode.

It's for the entire Relief Line, from Bloor West to Sheppard via Donwtown; 24 km in total.

I thought it was know DRL Long was the priority at this point? Sheppard to Bathurst (should be Keele Station).

Elevated up McCowan is not my preferred choice, I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't be the end of the world if built up the corridor as an alternative to tunneling. Besides I think whatever they'd wind up building would look far more aesthetically appealing than that image of NYC's elevated subway. Probably closer to this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/4556479499_fd2ac9eb77.jpg

This subway will have more delays underground. Not a good idea.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I thought it was know DRL Long was the priority at this point? Sheppard to Bathurst (should be Keele Station).

The DRL Long is the priority. Design and engineering work for DRL Long will begin this year. However, while DRL Long is proritized, design for the rest of the line has funding as well. Once DRL Long design is completed, design and engineering work will begin for DRL U (Bloor West to Downtown)

 

[BurlOak]

Exactly. At this point. There is no good deal we can have here. Closest to that is elevated subway (5) and the same for Sheppard, but that has not been floated yet.

I calculated before that for a subway to go from below ground to above ground, it needs 500+m. Thus, there is no room to switch from underground to elevated between 404 and Consumers, or between Consumers and VicPark, or between VicPark and Pharmacy. Either you have to ban left turns at Consumers (I don't see that), the only place you can achieve elevation is between Pharmacy and Warden - but is over half done already by then. It can't be done side-of-road, as there would be no access to businesses for the entire block.
I am beginning to believe that as good as elevation is, it is impossible to have the Sheppard Subway elevated along Sheppard. It may be able to elevate between Sheppard and 401, but even that I am dubious about.
The only elevated solution is to switch to SkyTrain - which can handle much steeper grades, and then switch to elevation on the East side of 404 (south side). This is still only about 400m, but may be possible (I don't know the exact end of station and station elevation).

Elevated up McCowan is not my preferred choice, I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't be the end of the world if built up the corridor as an alternative to tunneling. Besides I think whatever they'd wind up building would look far more aesthetically appealing than that image of NYC's elevated subway. Probably closer to this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/4556479499_fd2ac9eb77.jpg

Again, the only place I see the switch from underground to elevated happening is in the Gatineau Hydro corridor (after Birchmount and curving to McCowan). With this, it would have to be cut-and-cover until the Hydro corridor.
There is not enough room between the GO tracks and Midland. Between Midland and Birchmount, it would barely fit, but no left turns the entire way (if done in the median).
Again, I think elevating the B-D subway is not possible if it follows the Eglinton-McCowan route. It is only possible if it follows Midland to Gatineau Hydro corridor to McCowan.

If Sheppard and Scarborough are to be built, the way to save money seems to be using cut-and-cover. Alternatively, different technology can be used, by converting Sheppard, and having a different line reach STC.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The DRL Long is the priority. Design and engineering work for DRL Long will begin this year. However, while DRL Long is proritized, design for the rest of the line has funding as well. Once DRL Long design is completed, design and engineering work will begin for DRL U (Bloor West to Downtown)

They still need to get that Bloor to Eglinton part done.

 

[micheal_can]

Cut and cover makes the most sense financially, but you still have the NIMBY to deal with. TBM will be what they end up with. It is the least controversial. It costs more, and will take longer. But, it means less traffic disruptions and less challenges to people who live and work there.
Remember, every politician needs to be reelected. They will do what it takes to get reelected, and that means making people happy.

 

[OneCity]

Cut and cover makes the most sense financially, but you still have the NIMBY to deal with. TBM will be what they end up with. It is the least controversial. It costs more, and will take longer. But, it means less traffic disruptions and less challenges to people who live and work there.
Remember, every politician needs to be reelected. They will do what it takes to get reelected, and that means making people happy.

While I agree. There is a different Politcal wrinkle in play here that may overide the usual easy way out. Tory is under heavy pressure to:

1. Cut down cost of SSE
2. Deliver the Eglinton Extension as a package
3. Get SSE operational ASAP due to RT lifespan
4.Slapping us with the cost SMHtrack and keeping what's left of it to save some face

So the only way might be cut and cover. Pure speculation but wouldn't be shocked if this is the reason the report went back for finalization

 

[nfitz]

So the only way might be cut and cover.

Cut-and-cover is generally more expensive than tunneling. However, it does allow you to save significant money on the intermediate stations.

There are no intermediate stations.

 

[animatronic]

I calculated before that for a subway to go from below ground to above ground, it needs 500+m. Thus, there is no room to switch from underground to elevated between 404 and Consumers, or between Consumers and VicPark, or between VicPark and Pharmacy. Either you have to ban left turns at Consumers (I don't see that), the only place you can achieve elevation is between Pharmacy and Warden - but is over half done already by then. It can't be done side-of-road, as there would be no access to businesses for the entire block.
I am beginning to believe that as good as elevation is, it is impossible to have the Sheppard Subway elevated along Sheppard. It may be able to elevate between Sheppard and 401, but even that I am dubious about.
The only elevated solution is to switch to SkyTrain - which can handle much steeper grades, and then switch to elevation on the East side of 404 (south side). This is still only about 400m, but may be possible (I don't know the exact end of station and station elevation).

Nobody said the DRL needs to use Toronto Rocket stock. Yes it's the preferred scenario but if they need different rolling stock to make the line work it's in scope for the design phase.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Cut-and-cover is generally more expensive than tunneling. However, it does allow you to save significant money on the intermediate stations.

There are no intermediate stations.

Does it save money on terminal station(s)?

 

[BurlOak]

Nobody said the DRL needs to use Toronto Rocket stock. Yes it's the preferred scenario but if they need different rolling stock to make the line work it's in scope for the design phase.

Yes, that's true. Since we are in the Scarborough thread, I was talking about Scarborough subways.

For DRL, there are a couple of opportunities to switch from underground to elevated. The first at the ~Eastern Ave crossing of the Don. The second is the Millwood crossing of the Don.

 

[nfitz]

Does it save money on terminal station(s)?

Not really. The intermediate stations are typically built around the tunnel (removing the segments). The tunneling can stop short of the terminal station, and still get quite shallow. There's a bit of extra cost, but nothing like intermediate stations.

The emergency exits are a bigger issue.

 

[Palma]

Obviously, there exists a variety of opinions on this matter. But the fact that almost all councillors from Scarborough support the subway option, is a reliable indicator that the majority of their voters prefer the subway.

If the voters wanted more LRTs with more stops, but retaining the transfer at Kennedy, then the councillors would quickly change their opinions in favor of LRT.

Wrong. Most people do not follow things closely and hear subway and say "Ya I'm for subways". They all think its going to hit their area. They may not even be aware that LRT hits more stops etc. Councillors always count on their residents not following politics closely. Its why Mammoliti always gets back in. He actually states his residents do no want the LRT and will wait for subways. Has anyone taken a poll about that?

 

[OneCity]

Wrong. Most people do not follow things closely and hear subway and say "Ya I'm for subways". They all think its going to hit their area. They may not even be aware that LRT hits more stops etc. Councillors always count on their residents not following politics closely. Its why Mammoliti always gets back in. He actually states his residents do no want the LRT and will wait for subways. Has anyone taken a poll about that?

Goes both ways. People read their Metroland articles in the morning and think "Mayor Matlow and Deputy Mayor Perks are right and really care for Scarborough's needs far better than Scarborough councilors. Why wouldn't the LRT line with 7 stops make sense?" Many have likely never looked closely at the design locations of all the stops, and wouldn't even think about the integration that the LRT doesn't provide the City Centre.


I agree with your observation of Mammo, but you cant blame the residents, the rest of North York has so much subway its hard to comprehend another technology. Its really a shame they couldn't have converted the stubway to LRT and helped to quash the issue on both sides. In any event Finch West doesn't have the same design issues as Sheppard East LRT or the LRT design for Scarborough Centre

 

[Rainforest]

Well if people don't know that what one side was saying is BS and the other is not, then how can everyone be expected to make a fair decision?

I would not say the LRT side was not silenced, especially with that recent briefing note from the TTC that erroneously said going back to LRT would cost just as much as the Subway. There was no way that someone in the TTC didn't look at that note and think that something must be off about it. Much of what was claimed in it was already contradicted by the LRT plans already put together by Metrolinx and the TTC.

LRT plans were publisized well before 2013, Miller was the Mayor at that time, and the residents certainly had an option to understand what he wants to build in the SRT corridor.

If they did not get sold on that, then perhaps they have a reason.