Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Spadina was initially supposed to be rapid transit and it failed. No?

Spadina streetcar? I think it works pretty well for the corridor it serves. The ridership is very high for a surface route. The speed does not matter much, because the route is very short, and nobody travels on the streetcar end-to-end as both termini are connected by a direct subway route.

Obviuosly, the same model is not suited for long suburban transit lines.

 

[OneCity]

The subway was not for east of McCowan. This is all about central Scarborough. Malvern, Port Union, Highland Creek etc will not benefit from this. That's what the Scarborough East LRT is for.

I was responding as to how the subway will help still Malvern with a shorter bus ride and obviously they will need to be added in under a "phase 2" to either or both of the SSE or Eglinton crosstown. As a former Malvern resident many of us longed for a shorter commute to the subway. This is why there is solid support there even on the east side of Sheppard for both Subways.

Highland Creek will benefit off the Crosstown extension Port Union not so much. But that shouldn't be a priority unless the City and to Feds see potential in promoting the south end of the Rouge Park as a tourist area one day. They will likely focus above Kingston Rd though.

All of this was much faster then the streetcars downtown. Plus the Scarborough LRT was merged with the Eglinton Line, which Ford liked. This was all politics and racheted up to 11 by the ford family. There was no need for the past 7 years to happen.

Always has been Politics. There was no need for Scarborough to have their preference fully rejected again given what was built elsewhere in the City and what was going on in Vaughan. And therefore there was no need for the all out LRT 7 years that happened. Many of weren't big on those 7, you don't like these 7. And that a big reason why we have Tory is because of the sum of both. Ford doesn't happen if they didn't give him the opportunity to happen. You can see the history, Ford just dialed into it for and gave the large apathetic crowd a voice. That's Politics. But if the downtown Left continue to refuse to look in the mirror for being too one sided than these types will always have a chance to tap into the frustrated neglected voter. I don't want to see that but its clear they are still pissing enough people who now have some representatives willing to acknowledge them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Spadina was initially supposed to be rapid transit and it failed. No?

It was Ford that merged the line. Initially, SLRT and Eglinton we're completely separate

Yup. Ford and McGuinty merged it. Which was fine, because that was better then spending 4 billion to get rid of a transfer, especially when in the future Eglinton will busy. But it is what it is. We're basically back to the Network 2011 plan. Which is fine with me also.

I was responding as to how the subway will help still Malvern with a shorter bus ride and obviously they will need to be added in under a "phase 2" to either or both of the SSE or Eglinton crosstown. As a former Malvern resident many of us longed for a shorter commute to the subway. This is why there is solid support there even on the east side of Sheppard for both Subways.

Highland Creek will benefit off the Crosstown extension Port Union not so much. But that shouldn't be a priority unless the City and to Feds see potential in promoting the south end of the Rouge Park as a tourist area one day. They will likely focus above Kingston Rd though.



Always has been Politics. There was no need for Scarborough to have there request rejected and the previous 7 years that happened. We didn't like those 7, you don't like these 7. And that a big reason why we have Tory

They didn't make a request though. Voltz point was that there was much less opposition prior to ford, which is accurate.

 

[OneCity]

They didn't make a request though. Voltz point was that there was much less opposition prior to ford, which is accurate.

I provided the longer term history. If you selectively want to take the tiny snapshot of support during the Miller years right after they rejected Scarborough councils request for the SSE you are not looking at the real picture. Everyone was apathetic after the subway was rejected again and the media and the Left council ran the day for 7 years. Scarborough councilors had to play nice just to get anything and not get shamed in the media. They had little to gain and the Suburb just needed anything. That was the calm before the storm which had been brewing for a long time.

Ford saw the apathy and opportunity so he spoke directly at these people. Just so happened there were a lot. Again the TC design was not the preference and just OK as it addressed one of the two issues Scarborough residents want to see implemented. But then the implementation lacked adequate funding to make it even somewhat pallatable. And just OK shouldn't have been the baseline for our most neglected suburb and the integration didn't fit with what was built elsewhere in this City and is being designed elsewhere in the much less deserving Vaughan MC.

Miller put the ball on a tee, and even with everything quiet and the narrative being easily controlled Ford took his clubs and took full advantage of attacking this lackluster plan. If you cancel out this 7 with the previous 7 and look at the history, Scarborough has clearly always requested the SSE, on top of that you can see that the Miller years are not coming back anytime soon and a strong Political shift has taken place. Its really not even a close vote for Scarborough residents, it really isn't and Id love to see it on the election ballot to put this to bed and expose the false narratives.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I provided the longer term history. If you selectively want to take the tiny snapshot of support during the Miller years right after they rejected Scarborough councils request for the SSE you are not looking at the real picture. Everyone was apathetic after the subway was rejected again and the media and the Left council ran the day for 7 years. Scarborough councilors had to play nice just to get anything and not get shamed in the media. They had little to gain and the Suburb just needed anything.

Ford saw the apathy and opportunity and spoke directly to these people. Just so happened there were a lot. Again the TC design was not the preference and just OK as it addressed one of the two issues Scarborough residents want to see implemented, but the implementation lacked adequate funding to make it even somewhat OK. And OK shouldn't have been the baseline for our most neglected suburb and the integration didn't fit with what was built elsewhere in this City and is being designed elsewhere in the much less deserving Vaughan MC.

Miller put the ball on a tee, and even with everything quiet and the narrative being easily controlled Ford took his clubs and took full advantage of attacking this lackluster plan. If you cancel out this 7 with the previous 7 and look at the history, Scarborough has clearly always requested the SSE, on top of that you can see that the Miller years are not coming back anytime soon and a strong Political shift has taken place. Its really not even a close vote for Scarborough residents, it really isn't and Id love to see it on the election ballot to put this to bed and expose the false narratives.

Miller also rejected the DRL, did he hate downtown? No. And besides, Yonge and Bloor's station ridership will decrease as the subways are built. Which would have happened if the LRT was connected to Eglinton under the Ford-McGuinty plan. What was the difference between that and this other than cost?

I was against Vaughan, and I'm not even sure RH should be built at this point until the DRL was done.

 

[OneCity]

Miller also rejected the DRL, did he hate downtown? No. And besides, Yonge and Bloor's station ridership will decrease as the subways are built. Which would have happened if the LRT was connected to Eglinton under the Ford-McGuinty plan. What was the difference between that and this other than cost?

I was against Vaughan, and I'm not even sure RH should be built at this point until the DRL was done.

I never once said Miller hated Scarborough or Downtown? He had some good points in his plan but it was flawed and he made his own bed. What I said was the details of his plan was not the main preference of Scarborough residents whatsoever. He took a chance against Scarborough's original wishes and ended up exposed as another Politician took full advantage of that large ignored voice and that's where we are today.

Im not here to defend Fords legacy or his personal life. But Ford certainly tried to compromise, as he was determined to give these voters what they wanted as the starting point on transit by getting rid of the poorly designed transfers on both Sheppard and at SCC. Yet he still gets slagged as if he had the Iron fist. I would argue that problem of not budging is far greater on the other side of the debate. Even today.

We are all good in this City now if we stay on track. The DRL should built, the SSE, and the Eglinton extensions should as well. Who cares what gets built first. Just build it now and as fast as possible and keep building. Temporary congestion on the Yonge line will add fuel to force the hands even more, as long as we continue to move forward its not the worst scenario. The City will have a far greater foundation to build out from after these projects. Im very optimistic for future City unity if we accomplish this phase.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I never once said Miller hated Scarborough or Downtown? He had some good points in his plan but it was flawed and he made his own bed. What I said was the details of his plan was not the main preference of Scarborough residents whatsoever. He took a chance against Scarborough's original wishes and ended up exposed as another Politician took full advantage of that large ignored voice and that's where we are today.

Im not here to defend Fords legacy or his personal life. But Ford certainly tried to compromise, as he was determined to give these voters what they wanted as the starting point on transit by getting rid of the poorly designed transfers on both Sheppard and at SCC. Yet he still gets slagged as if he had the Iron fist. I would argue that problem of not budging is far greater on the other side of the debate. Even today.

We are all good in this City now if we stay on track. The DRL should built, the SSE, and the Eglinton extensions should as well. Who cares what gets built first. Just build it now and as fast as possible and keep building. Temporary congestion on the Yonge line will add fuel to force the hands even more, as long as we continue to move forward its not the worst scenario. The City will have a far greater foundation to build out from after these projects. Im very optimistic for future City unity if we accomplish this phase.

Fair enough. We'll see. I wouldn't ask you to defend ford anyway.

 

[nfitz]

But Ford certainly tried to compromise...

Ford didn't have a clue what he was doing. He wasn't sober for a long enough period. People did stuff around him. He certainly didn't merge the Eglinton and SRT lines - he didn't even understand what they were, with his complaints of the SRT converted LRT causing traffic jams. To give him any personal credit is an insult to those on staff who weren't banging teen-age prostitutes while on crack.

 

[BurlOak]

Spadina was initially supposed to be rapid transit and it failed. No?

It was Ford that merged the line. Initially, SLRT and Eglinton we're completely separate

Technically, SLRT and ECLRT were merged, circa 2008 before any analysis was done. When they looked at some numbers, it became apparant that through running the SRT would overload the on-street LRT on Eglinton. The 2 solutions (circa 2009) were to grade-separate, or force the passengers to transfer. The Transit City solution was to force the transfer.
It was 2011 that the Ford merged line came about.

All of this was much faster then the streetcars downtown. Plus the Scarborough LRT was merged with the Eglinton Line, which Ford liked. This was all politics and racheted up to 11 by the ford family. There was no need for the past 7 years to happen.

The past 7 years happened because TTC and Miller made the decision to force the transfer.
The past 5 years happened because Councillors and MPP's decided to cancel the Ford plan at any cost. The 5 years and several Billions of dollars are the costs associated with the 2012 effort headed by Stintz.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...unded-transit-report-kept-secret-by-city.html

A consultant's report gets buried and kept from the public, and you guys just perpetuate the debates you were already wrapped up in like nothing happened.

This is why I don't bother following this thread.

 

[salsa]

A consultant's report gets buried and kept from the public, and you guys just perpetuate the debates you were already wrapped up in like nothing happened.

This is why I don't bother following this thread.

To be honest I don't know why I keep checking this thread, as if I would get any actual new out of it. If it's just gonna be the same debates from the same members arguing over and over again about which transit plan = respect for Scarborough, then I have better things to do.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I would really appreciate if this mods would take some action to clean up this thread. It's by far the least productive thread on UT. Actual news regularly gets ignored, and the same old arguments from the usual suspects get hashed out multiple times daily, as if there's potential for opinions to change. I'd like to have a substantive discussion about one of the most important infrastructure projects in the region, but that can't be done here. This thread is toxic.

 

[micheal_can]

Ford didn't have a clue what he was doing. He wasn't sober for a long enough period. People did stuff around him. He certainly didn't merge the Eglinton and SRT lines - he didn't even understand what they were, with his complaints of the SRT converted LRT causing traffic jams. To give him any personal credit is an insult to those on staff who weren't banging teen-age prostitutes while on crack.

Technically, SLRT and ECLRT were merged, circa 2008 before any analysis was done. When they looked at some numbers, it became apparant that through running the SRT would overload the on-street LRT on Eglinton. The 2 solutions (circa 2009) were to grade-separate, or force the passengers to transfer. The Transit City solution was to force the transfer.
It was 2011 that the Ford merged line came about.

The past 7 years happened because TTC and Miller made the decision to force the transfer.
The past 5 years happened because Councillors and MPP's decided to cancel the Ford plan at any cost. The 5 years and several Billions of dollars are the costs associated with the 2012 effort headed by Stintz.

So, everyone arguing about not extending the subway, but extend Crosstown is wrong? Sadly, that won't stop anyone.

It is too bad that each politician, whether municipal, provincial or federal must have their stamp on every transit project. In 10 years, Transit City, The Big Move and Smartrack will all be a distant memory and the city will still be gridlocked.

 

[OneCity]

A consultant's report gets buried and kept from the public, and you guys just perpetuate the debates you were already wrapped up in like nothing happened.

This is why I don't bother following this thread.

The consultant report was an unfinished attempt to provide backing for Tory's plan. Its absurd indeed for many reasons but its how its been done for a long time and the consultant fishing for more money to finish the report this is also absurd and common. This is very far being a sole SSE issue and happens on most projects. Id love to see the Star go after every project like this so we could see every unfinished reports or where all the money goes. They wont.

In any event the latest report to come out whenever it does will likely provide all the details they wanted previously and more. Its very possible it got sent back with more money as well to be updated. Again very common.

Until then....

Thanks to @nfitz and others for the Political discussion recently while it's been quiet as it is very relevant to this topic and good to hear all views.

 

[ShonTron]

A consultant's report gets buried and kept from the public, and you guys just perpetuate the debates you were already wrapped up in like nothing happened.

This is why I don't bother following this thread.

Agreed. This is useful news about the politics surrounding this project and worth discussing. Debating back and forth the same lines is not. It's too much work to go back and prune all the repetitive banter, but I think from now on, we should discuss what's current, not rehash the same talking points.