W. K. Lis
Superstar
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TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
Source?
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
@smallspy is the source.
smallspy
Senior Member
I dunno, all of those meetings that they had during the EA process many years ago? TTC's own planning staff?
Maybe instead of lobbing potshots from the sidelines Walter, you could try engaging with people?
Dan
torontocolin
Active Member
I don't think I quite understand your point. We have two LRT lines currently under construction, both of which will move significantly more people than the buses they replace. We have two subway projects in planning, and maybe you (like me) don't believe they will actually be shovel-ready by the promised dates, but I don't think you can put that on the city right now. On top of those, work on GO RER is slowly progressing, along with ATC upgrades to line 1, and we're getting close to being ready to proceed with building a new connection for the streetcar system through the Exhibition. There are lots of problems with the way the city and province prioritizes, funds, and advances projects, but if you just want to strictly be a slave to "there must always be a new line under construction" we've had active work on a new rail line serving Toronto at all times since 2010, when the GTS/UPX project began.
These capital projects are important. The DRL and a replacement for the SRT are critical infrastructure for this city, and ensuring they advance is important work. But those projects are mostly advancing, the arguments at this point are mostly about scope and scale and when rather than if. What is not advancing is buying enough streetcars to actually serve the demand, building enough garages and buying enough buses, and then funding the operating costs of putting those vehicles on the road.
pstogios
Senior Member
I don’t know how much this would raise, but the city of Toronto should levy an escalated property tax rate on properties over a certain threshold of square footage or value. The mega-rich can afford to contribute more to fix the quagmire the city’s finances are still in.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
They haven't confirmed anything yet, beyond the existence of the switches that'll let them run more service in the underground section.
In any case, there's no reason why they can't run high frequencies in the surface sections. The LRVs are going to be following regular traffic signals, just like the streetcars on St Clair and Spadina.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
A few things I noticed while looking through streetcar network maps:
1. We should really replace the 22 with a streetcar line (Say the 513, since the 522 is the Exhibition West Car), especially if the 503 and 502 are going to be killed. The 22 is frequent and runs all day, plus it has blue night service. The streetcar tracks along Kingston Road are underutilized, and most of Coxwell has remained from an old streetcar line. If we can't get a parliament streetcar, then the least we could do is upgrade the 22 to streetcar service. The Queen-Coxwell loop and the Woodbine loop also exist along the corridor and can allow for route management if necessary
2. It might be a good idea to expropriate Parking Lot D at the CNE and build a carhouse there for future streetcar storage. It's super close to the Exhibition Loop, so it can support direct service to the 509 and 511, and indirect service to the 510. It would also potentially utilize the Exhibition Loops extra tracks for storage. It can also, with the addition of about 1km of track (and a bridge over the Gardiner), directly serve the 504B, and a potential Dufferin Streetcar.
1. We should really replace the 22 with a streetcar line (Say the 513, since the 522 is the Exhibition West Car), especially if the 503 and 502 are going to be killed. The 22 is frequent and runs all day, plus it has blue night service. The streetcar tracks along Kingston Road are underutilized, and most of Coxwell has remained from an old streetcar line. If we can't get a parliament streetcar, then the least we could do is upgrade the 22 to streetcar service. The Queen-Coxwell loop and the Woodbine loop also exist along the corridor and can allow for route management if necessary
2. It might be a good idea to expropriate Parking Lot D at the CNE and build a carhouse there for future streetcar storage. It's super close to the Exhibition Loop, so it can support direct service to the 509 and 511, and indirect service to the 510. It would also potentially utilize the Exhibition Loops extra tracks for storage. It can also, with the addition of about 1km of track (and a bridge over the Gardiner), directly serve the 504B, and a potential Dufferin Streetcar.
dowlingm
Senior Member
@Streety McCarface how familiar are you with Coxwell between Upper Gerrard E and Danforth? Despite what Google Maps on iOS says, it ain’t “mostly flat” and tunnelling it to run at a shallow incline and passing beneath Line 2 to a terminus near/past East York Civic Centre would almost certainly require continuance of a surface route to serve the two schools and the residences in between.
One notion I have had is to eliminate the 502 in favour of 503 as the sole Kingston Road route, and replace it with a bus route along Dundas as far as Toronto Western. There are several growing nodes along that route (Ryerson-Jarvis, Regent Park, Dundas-Logan) and potential ones (the cop shop being vacated at Coxwell) and it would take some pressure off the 505. The 22 remnant Coxwell section could interline with 92 (via Lake Shore) or 31 (via Eastern)
One notion I have had is to eliminate the 502 in favour of 503 as the sole Kingston Road route, and replace it with a bus route along Dundas as far as Toronto Western. There are several growing nodes along that route (Ryerson-Jarvis, Regent Park, Dundas-Logan) and potential ones (the cop shop being vacated at Coxwell) and it would take some pressure off the 505. The 22 remnant Coxwell section could interline with 92 (via Lake Shore) or 31 (via Eastern)
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Why would you extend it all the way north to East York Civic Centre? The 22 terminates at Coxwell station, so there shouldn't be any reason to extend any future streetcar line north of Danforth (for the time being).
Also, while I haven't surveyed the area myself, Online maps are telling me the elevation difference between Coxwell Station and Gerrard is 20 meters (116m at Coxwell and 96 meters at Gerrard/Coxwell (which decreases fairly constantly but I have a feeling that is because they are using Triangulated Integrated Networks). Over the course of 1000 meters, that's only a grade of 2%. The maximum (according to TransitToronto) grade the network can be at is 8%, so I doubt there are any problems with running streetcars along it. Obviously, some grading will have to be done, but that happens with every road improvement project.
Streetcars used to run into Coxwell Station (https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_1945.pdf)
dowlingm
Senior Member
@Streety McCarface there is a bit of a difference between traffic patterns then and now, and there is the matter of the GO bridge which reduces traffic to a single lane each way. On street construction would also be a significant issue given the distance between N-S streets - the current bridge refurb is forcing a reroute of 22 northbound (and other traffic) via Woodbine. Finally, extending to East York Civic would provide not only direct connection to the hospital but room for a loop on or under the square in front - the previous looping arrangements are unlikely to fly especially given the size of modern trams vs PCCs.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
.
Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.
I would just loop it like this:
Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.
Richard White
Senior Member
Have you ever been to Broadview station?
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Broadview and Coxwell are two completely different cases. Broadview has to deal with streetcars from both the 505 and 504B, two of the busiest streetcar lines in the entire system. Coxwell is also far less busy than Broadview so there's less risk of running behind schedule or disturbing traffic. Remember, Coxwell would only see a streetcar at most every 10 minutes, so traffic slowdowns would occur but shouldn't significantly impact traffic.
Richard White
Senior Member
Both however looop via sidestreets.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
But what factor involving side street looping inhibits service?