TTC: Streetcar Network

[Streety McCarface]

A few things I noticed while looking through streetcar network maps:

1. We should really replace the 22 with a streetcar line (Say the 513, since the 522 is the Exhibition West Car), especially if the 503 and 502 are going to be killed. The 22 is frequent and runs all day, plus it has blue night service. The streetcar tracks along Kingston Road are underutilized, and most of Coxwell has remained from an old streetcar line. If we can't get a parliament streetcar, then the least we could do is upgrade the 22 to streetcar service. The Queen-Coxwell loop and the Woodbine loop also exist along the corridor and can allow for route management if necessary

2. It might be a good idea to expropriate Parking Lot D at the CNE and build a carhouse there for future streetcar storage. It's super close to the Exhibition Loop, so it can support direct service to the 509 and 511, and indirect service to the 510. It would also potentially utilize the Exhibition Loops extra tracks for storage. It can also, with the addition of about 1km of track (and a bridge over the Gardiner), directly serve the 504B, and a potential Dufferin Streetcar.

 

[dowlingm]

@Streety McCarface how familiar are you with Coxwell between Upper Gerrard E and Danforth? Despite what Google Maps on iOS says, it ain’t “mostly flat” and tunnelling it to run at a shallow incline and passing beneath Line 2 to a terminus near/past East York Civic Centre would almost certainly require continuance of a surface route to serve the two schools and the residences in between.

One notion I have had is to eliminate the 502 in favour of 503 as the sole Kingston Road route, and replace it with a bus route along Dundas as far as Toronto Western. There are several growing nodes along that route (Ryerson-Jarvis, Regent Park, Dundas-Logan) and potential ones (the cop shop being vacated at Coxwell) and it would take some pressure off the 505. The 22 remnant Coxwell section could interline with 92 (via Lake Shore) or 31 (via Eastern)

 

[Streety McCarface]

@Streety McCarface how familiar are you with Coxwell between Upper Gerrard E and Danforth? Despite what Google Maps on iOS says, it ain’t “mostly flat” and tunnelling it to run at a shallow incline and passing beneath Line 2 to a terminus near/past East York Civic Centre would almost certainly require continuance of a surface route to serve the two schools and the residences in between.

One notion I have had is to eliminate the 502 in favour of 503 as the sole Kingston Road route, and replace it with a bus route along Dundas as far as Toronto Western. There are several growing nodes along that route (Ryerson-Jarvis, Regent Park, Dundas-Logan) and potential ones (the cop shop being vacated at Coxwell) and it would take some pressure off the 505. The 22 remnant Coxwell section could interline with 92 (via Lake Shore) or 31 (via Eastern)

Why would you extend it all the way north to East York Civic Centre? The 22 terminates at Coxwell station, so there shouldn't be any reason to extend any future streetcar line north of Danforth (for the time being).

Also, while I haven't surveyed the area myself, Online maps are telling me the elevation difference between Coxwell Station and Gerrard is 20 meters (116m at Coxwell and 96 meters at Gerrard/Coxwell (which decreases fairly constantly but I have a feeling that is because they are using Triangulated Integrated Networks). Over the course of 1000 meters, that's only a grade of 2%. The maximum (according to TransitToronto) grade the network can be at is 8%, so I doubt there are any problems with running streetcars along it. Obviously, some grading will have to be done, but that happens with every road improvement project.

Streetcars used to run into Coxwell Station (https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_1945.pdf)

 

[dowlingm]

@Streety McCarface there is a bit of a difference between traffic patterns then and now, and there is the matter of the GO bridge which reduces traffic to a single lane each way. On street construction would also be a significant issue given the distance between N-S streets - the current bridge refurb is forcing a reroute of 22 northbound (and other traffic) via Woodbine. Finally, extending to East York Civic would provide not only direct connection to the hospital but room for a loop on or under the square in front - the previous looping arrangements are unlikely to fly especially given the size of modern trams vs PCCs.

 

[Streety McCarface]

.

@Streety McCarface there is a bit of a difference between traffic patterns then and now, and there is the matter of the GO bridge which reduces traffic to a single lane each way. On street construction would also be a significant issue given the distance between N-S streets - the current bridge refurb is forcing a reroute of 22 northbound (and other traffic) via Woodbine. Finally, extending to East York Civic would provide not only direct connection to the hospital but room for a loop on or under the square in front - the previous looping arrangements are unlikely to fly especially given the size of modern trams vs PCCs.

I would just loop it like this:

Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.

 

[Richard White]

.
I would just loop it like this:
View attachment 203986
Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.

Have you ever been to Broadview station?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Have you ever been to Broadview station?

Broadview and Coxwell are two completely different cases. Broadview has to deal with streetcars from both the 505 and 504B, two of the busiest streetcar lines in the entire system. Coxwell is also far less busy than Broadview so there's less risk of running behind schedule or disturbing traffic. Remember, Coxwell would only see a streetcar at most every 10 minutes, so traffic slowdowns would occur but shouldn't significantly impact traffic.

 

[Richard White]

Broadview and Coxwell are two completely different cases. Broadview has to deal with streetcars from both the 505 and 504B, two of the busiest streetcar lines in the entire system. Coxwell is also far less busy than Broadview so there's less risk of running behind schedule or disturbing traffic. Remember, Coxwell would only see a streetcar at most every 10 minutes.

Both however looop via sidestreets.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Both however looop via sidestreets.

But what factor involving side street looping inhibits service?

 

[Richard White]

But what factor involving side street looping inhibits service?

They tie up traffic laying over on the sidestreets.

 

[Streety McCarface]

They tie up traffic laying over on the sidestreets.

But if scheduling is done correctly, there is no reason they should be laying over on said sidestreets. If there's space to store at least 1 streetcar at Coxwell, layovers on side streets will barely happen and if there is room for 2 streetcars, theoretically, bunching should never happen at the terminals, again, because frequencies would be so low for a streetcar line, and because traffic wouldn't severely affect the schedules of the cars.

EDIT: For the record, streetcars would enter via the south alleyway, which has the potential to be used by 2 vehicles at any given time. Vehicles would exit onto Strathmore Blvd, meaning they would not be laying over there.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Coxwell Station

★★★☆☆ · Bus station · Toronto, ON M4C 1H6

goo.gl

There is a Green P lot just south of Coxwell Station, facing Danforth Avenue. The TTC could take PART of the Green P lot, if the northbound streetcar turned east on Danforth into the west side of the platform. Exiting via Strathmore Blvd. to turn south on Coxwell Avenue, the streetcar could do its return trip.

There would be objections from the automobile-addicted councillors from the suburbs, of course.

 

[dowlingm]

.
I would just loop it like this:

Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.

Try again but with streetcar minimum curve radii and somewhere to put an accessible platform. That lane you are putting the Flexity down is maybe 5 meters wide even if you could get the Flexity to turn into it.

For the number of spaces involved, Green P lot would probably just get the predictable complaints from nearby traders rather than the War on the Car soldiers. I would have converted part of Danforth Garage (where the cops are going) to a Green P and put something in that space providing Danforth frontage to the subway. The bus terminal is presumably protected which limits some options there.

 

[smallspy]

They tie up traffic laying over on the sidestreets.

Streetcars don't lay over on the side street - Erindale Ave. - as they exit from the station onto it.

Dan

 

[Jonny5]

.
I would just loop it like this:
View attachment 203986
Space is a concern but the station can be easily modified to fit the 30 meter beast.

T%he exit route you have chosen is the empty space because it is directly over the subway tracks. That's why it is unused. Are you sure they can actually build anything top of that? It been a while, but I also recall there being a grade change here too which would be a hindrance.