News   Jul 03, 2020
 741     0 
News   Jul 03, 2020
 365     0 
News   Jul 03, 2020
 801     2 

TTC: Streetcar Network

NoahB

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Messages
112
Reaction score
239
But the subway is all TTC gauge. Therefor, they are streetcars? That is my problem with the Crosstown. It is not an RT any ore than St Clair or Spadina is, but we are being convinced it is for something that could be argued out by existing equipment and construction.
You disregarded all of the other vehicle differences I mentioned...
Your question works both ways: the RT and T1 trains both use the TTC gauge, are they streetcars?

The trains on the Crosstown share as many features with the TTC subway trains as they do with TTC streetcar rolling stock. For example, the Crosstown's Flexity Freedom has doors on both sides, so it can support both center platforms and side platforms at stations, like a subway train. They are also expected to be coupled together into longer trains, like a subway train. They are going to be automated inside the tunnels, like the subway. And so on.

The point is: You can't slap a dedicated lane on a regular bus or streetcar and pretend they are now BRT and LRT. St Clair or Spadina's streetcars cant do any of the above. Hence they are not called LRT in Toronto. (even though they tried to brand Spadina at launch as an LRT and it only caused confusion. That's another matter)
 

micheal_can

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
1,140
You disregarded all of the other vehicle differences I mentioned...
Your question works both ways: the RT and T1 trains both use the TTC gauge, are they streetcars?

The trains on the Crosstown share as many features with the TTC subway trains as they do with TTC streetcar rolling stock. For example, the Crosstown's Flexity Freedom has doors on both sides, so it can support both center platforms and side platforms at stations, like a subway train. They are also expected to be coupled together into longer trains, like a subway train. They are going to be automated inside the tunnels, like the subway. And so on.

The point is: You can't slap a dedicated lane on a regular bus or streetcar and pretend they are now BRT and LRT. St Clair or Spadina's streetcars cant do any of the above. Hence they are not called LRT in Toronto. (even though they tried to brand Spadina at launch as an LRT and it only caused confusion. That's another matter)
Spacing, King to Queen Station is under 400m. One can argue that is too close for subway stations, so therefor this is not a subway. I would not argue that the King or Queen lines are LRT as they run with traffic and do not get special signals. But, as I understand Eglinton, it will not have signal priority, like LRTs elsewhere get. So, it is less an LRT than we may want to agree to. So, why not put Spadina and ST Clair routes on the RT map as they match more like what Eglinton will be.
 

NoahB

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Messages
112
Reaction score
239
Spacing, King to Queen Station is under 400m. One can argue that is too close for subway stations, so therefor this is not a subway. I would not argue that the King or Queen lines are LRT as they run with traffic and do not get special signals. But, as I understand Eglinton, it will not have signal priority, like LRTs elsewhere get. So, it is less an LRT than we may want to agree to. So, why not put Spadina and ST Clair routes on the RT map as they match more like what Eglinton will be.
What part of the 'rolling stock and stations are different' do you not understand? Along with vehicles that have subway features, the Crosstown underground stations are full-on subway stations. While the LRT stops go above and beyond what a regular TTC stop provides. ie, shade, information panels, seating, and self-service ticket vending/validation equipment. (from the Environmental Project Report, p.62)

And the crosstown will have signal priority if their "LRT Facts" document is to be believed.

Please research before you make any more posts.
 
Last edited:

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,175
Reaction score
1,545
I think the rolling stock and the track gauge are less relevant for 99% of the riders who are not transit fans. What really matters for them is speed and capacity. In that sense, Eglinton LRT will have more similarity to the subways than with the St Clair line:
- Eglinton: 25-28 kph, almost as fast as Line 2 subway, mostly due to the central tunnel section, but also because of the wide surface stop spacing. St Clair: much slower, 15 kph at best, because of the build form with many cross streets.
- Eglinton: capacity of 7-8 k per hour per direction on the opening day, and can be expanded to ~ 13 k if needed. St Clair would choke at anything higher than 5-6 k.
- Eglinton: spawns much of the city, can be used to travel from one part to another. St Clair: only 7 km in length, great for local service but too short and too slow for traveling from one part of the city to another.

Now, deciding what to put / not put on a map is always a matter of debate, unless that's a complete transit map. Eglinton is a notch lower than subway, but a notch higher than Finch LRT. Finch is a notch higher than St Clair and Spadina. Those are, in turn, a notch higher than Queen or Dundas or College. The choice of the cutoff is somewhat arbitrary.

I would probably put all subways, UPX, and all dedicated-lane LRT/streetcar lines on the generalized map. That means: ECLRT, Finch, St Clair, Spadina, Harborfront. Other people have other preferences though.
 

micheal_can

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
1,140
What part of the 'rolling stock and stations are different' do you not understand? Along with vehicles that have subway features, the Crosstown underground stations are full-on subway stations. While the LRT stops go above and beyond what a regular TTC stop provides. ie, shade, information panels, seating, and self-service ticket vending/validation equipment. (from the Environmental Project Report, p.62)

And the crosstown will have signal priority if their "LRT Facts" document is to be believed.

Please research before you make any more posts.
I have done research and cannot really find much that makes it different.

The LRT underground stations, How are they different from Queen's Quay Station?
The Above stations sounds exactly like Spadina and St Clair. I think once they are open, I will need to really look for those differences.

They have been talking about signal priority on the Spadina and the St Clair lines for a while. In act, the TTC seems to talk a lot about transit priority that never really materializes..
 

micheal_can

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
1,140
I think the rolling stock and the track gauge are less relevant for 99% of the riders who are not transit fans. What really matters for them is speed and capacity. In that sense, Eglinton LRT will have more similarity to the subways than with the St Clair line:
- Eglinton: 25-28 kph, almost as fast as Line 2 subway, mostly due to the central tunnel section, but also because of the wide surface stop spacing. St Clair: much slower, 15 kph at best, because of the build form with many cross streets.
- Eglinton: capacity of 7-8 k per hour per direction on the opening day, and can be expanded to ~ 13 k if needed. St Clair would choke at anything higher than 5-6 k.
- Eglinton: spawns much of the city, can be used to travel from one part to another. St Clair: only 7 km in length, great for local service but too short and too slow for traveling from one part of the city to another.

Now, deciding what to put / not put on a map is always a matter of debate, unless that's a complete transit map. Eglinton is a notch lower than subway, but a notch higher than Finch LRT. Finch is a notch higher than St Clair and Spadina. Those are, in turn, a notch higher than Queen or Dundas or College. The choice of the cutoff is somewhat arbitrary.

I would probably put all subways, UPX, and all dedicated-lane LRT/streetcar lines on the generalized map. That means: ECLRT, Finch, St Clair, Spadina, Harborfront. Other people have other preferences though.
Thank you for those comparisons. It helps me understand what the differences are.
 

Steve X

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Messages
1,787
Reaction score
1,119
I have done research and cannot really find much that makes it different.

The LRT underground stations, How are they different from Queen's Quay Station?
The Above stations sounds exactly like Spadina and St Clair. I think once they are open, I will need to really look for those differences.

They have been talking about signal priority on the Spadina and the St Clair lines for a while. In act, the TTC seems to talk a lot about transit priority that never really materializes..
Queens Quay is a pretty crappy cheap station. The Crosstown ones would feel more like a subway station being deep, centre platform with escalators and elevators. Their entrances seems much nicer and inviting that Queens Quay plus level boarding. At Queens Quay one would have to step up and ramps deployed for accessibility.

The surface stops are wider (like the ION stations) with lighting and informational electronic signs. Other than that, I think the surface section would really feel more like Spadina or St Clair.

As to appearing on the Rapid Transit map, I would say Line 5 does and 510/512 doesn't. The big difference isn't how the vehicles or stops look like but the purpose of each line. Line 5 is designed for regional longer distance travel while the 510/512 are pretty local lines. Line 6 is hmmmm... maybe? It does serve a regional purpose by connect to Humber College which would become a transit hub. The 900 Airport Express does deserve to be on the map to help tourists navigate the city while other express bus routes don't.
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
16,879
Reaction score
5,575
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
And this doesn't even include the population increase along the routes...

The replacing the streetcars with buses for construction or shortages is the problem. Transit users do not like using buses, especially on streetcar routes. They end up looking for alternatives, like the subway (wish them luck with the shutdowns, early closures, or stoppages).
 
Last edited:

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
16,879
Reaction score
5,575
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
Meanwhile....

NYC launches new website outlining timeline and process for the BQX streetcar

See link.

After much uncertainty and relative quiet, an updated timeline has been announced for the Brooklyn-Queens Connector (BQX streetcar) that would connect 11 miles of Brooklyn and Queens. The City’s Economic Development Corporation and the Department of Transportation have launched a new website detailing the proposed streetcar, along with previously released and new reports, which would run from Red Hook to Astoria and connect 13 subway lines and 30 bus routes.

The BQX team proposes having at least five community board presentations and a minimum of five workshops this winter, and intend to collect public opinion on the $2.7 billion project via the new website and engage in on-the-ground outreach. There will be public hearings and the collection of comments in May and June, followed by a draft environmental impact statement in the spring of next year, with the final version to be released in fall of 2021 following public comment. Alternative options to the light rail line will reportedly be considered (the website gives the example of a dedicated bus lane). Currently, the city aims to open the line in 2029.

If all goes according to plan, the city will then seek federal funding (as much as $1 billion according to previous reports) and undertake a land-use review, get the necessary approvals, and select designers, contractors, and companies to run the BQX. Funding has been a major hurdle for the streetcar. The federal government has certainly not been generous with infrastructure projects as of late, especially in areas the current administration sees as opposed to it. While it was suggested that Amazon (which was going to receive nearly $3 billion in subsidies, tax breaks, and incentives) might have footed part of the bill when they had planned to build their HQ2 in Long Island City, that option is obviously off the table. Many City Council members have questioned the price tag relative to the streetcar’s projected ridership and the desperate need for upgrades to transit options elsewhere. Mayor Bill de Blasio continues to advocate for the project, however.
See
https://www.brooklynqueensconnector.nyc/

 

Top