TTC: Streetcar Network

[thettctransitfanatic]

Whenever they return the streetcars back onto the 505 DUNDAS (insert sound of crickets here), how about some streetcar games?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2432025493697485

505 will get the Flexities again using pantos sometime in March or April (probably starting with either board period), but if they will have any special event held for the return of cars on Dundas is unknown. I certainly think there should be.

 

[Steve X]

I really don't know if it's time to celebrate or shake your heads when the 505 gets Flexity's. I am certainly anticipating travel time increasing while headways doubled. Plus getting stuck behind 504's at both ends.

It is not a problem with streetcars itself but more of how TTC operates them.

 

[ViveleCanada]

I found an interesting comment on Steve Munro's blog. An anonymous commentator, claiming to be close to one of the TTC's board members, has said there is currently a push from both the mayor's office and the provincial government to replace additional streetcar orders for electric articulated buses. The original comment is in the comments section of the article: Toronto Budget 2020: More Transit Money, But How Will It Be Used? Per usual, Steve Munro made a reply that essentially explained why doing such a thing is a bad idea. Given how much the Ford family loathed streetcars, I won't be too surprised if it turns out this comment does have substance to it.

 

[Steve X]

With buses being more reliable than streetcars, I don't see why they wouldn't consider that. They'll also solve the headache of finding a new carhouse. It'll all depend on how these pros and cons stack up when TTC evaluates both options.

 

[DSC]

With buses being more reliable than streetcars, I don't see why they wouldn't consider that. They'll also solve the headache of finding a new carhouse. It'll all depend on how these pros and cons stack up when TTC evaluates both options.

I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.

Buses last 12 to 15 years, sometimes as low as 7 years. Don't have the capacity. They don't have fuel gauges on them, and have to known to run out of fuel.

 

[Steve X]

I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.

As for new buses, they are managing an average of over 20k km MDBF. The flexity's aren't even hitting 20k and we don't even know if they'll ever hit 20k nevermind 35k. Buses aren't as reliable as they get old but they can always get a new batch after 12-15 years. If these Flexity's decline to what the CLRVs did (5-10k MDBF), we are stuck with them for 30+ years. They weren't meant for 40 years. The ALRVs only lasted 30 and who knows what these defected BBD cars will last???

TTC might see this as a good option for lower ridership routes like the 502/503, 501L and 508 as well as trippers along the 501, 504 and 506.

I agree buses need bus garages and they shouldn't go with buses as that's not investment for the future. I'm just pointing out that since the upfront cost of building a new garage and getting buses is cheaper plus they are performing better than eh Flexity's, some councilors might support buses over streetcars. We'll have to wait to see what happens at the board meeting at the end of the month.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.

The CLRVs were not meant to last 40, but did, in large part because of TTC's good maintaince on the fleet. If they countine to do what they do, the Flexities will be short turning in the scrapyard in 20-30 years. Streetcars are more realible then buses. As others have said, as they age they become unrealible.

 

[micheal_can]

The CLRVs were not meant to last 40, but did, in large part because of TTC's good maintaince on the fleet. If they countine to do what they do, the Flexities will be short turning in the scrapyard in 20-30 years. Streetcars are more realible then buses. As others have said, as they age they become unrealible.

You can keep anything going if you have to. The TTC should be getting a new contract for new Streetcars sooner than later. When the first current one hits 10 years, the first new one should be arriving. RThis would allow the older ones to be taken out of service to be rebuilt, and prevent a loss of service.

 

[Johnny Au]

You can keep anything going if you have to. The TTC should be getting a new contract for new Streetcars sooner than later. When the first current one hits 10 years, the first new one should be arriving. RThis would allow the older ones to be taken out of service to be rebuilt, and prevent a loss of service.

Bring on the Flexity Outlook Mk. 2!

 

[micheal_can]

I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/spadina-rapid-transit-line-speculative.30467/

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-st-clair-streetcar-right-of-way.18048/post-1491663

 

[Streety McCarface]

As for new buses, they are managing an average of over 20k km MDBF. The flexity's aren't even hitting 20k and we don't even know if they'll ever hit 20k nevermind 35k. Buses aren't as reliable as they get old but they can always get a new batch after 12-15 years. If these Flexity's decline to what the CLRVs did (5-10k MDBF), we are stuck with them for 30+ years. They weren't meant for 40 years. The ALRVs only lasted 30 and who knows what these defected BBD cars will last???

TTC might see this as a good option for lower ridership routes like the 502/503, 501L and 508 as well as trippers along the 501, 504 and 506.

I agree buses need bus garages and they shouldn't go with buses as that's not investment for the future. I'm just pointing out that since the upfront cost of building a new garage and getting buses is cheaper plus they are performing better than eh Flexity's, some councilors might support buses over streetcars. We'll have to wait to see what happens at the board meeting at the end of the month.

So you're saying we should just abandon half our perfectly good streetcar network simply because some new vehicles aren't hitting arbitrary reliability targets? WTF?

Also, I'd like to know what defines a "failure" in both cases. A lot of times, a streetcar failure simply involves a reboot and takes less than 3 minutes.

Buses have to shut down and startup all the time when things go wrong, are those reported as "Failures"?

 

[micheal_can]

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/spadina-rapid-transit-line-speculative.30467/

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-st-clair-streetcar-right-of-way.18048/post-1491663

Couldn't the 512 ST. CLAIR streetcar be UPGRADED to become a new light rail rapid transit line? HOW?

1. Replace the single-point track switches with double-point tracks? Similar to the double-point track switches used by the heavy rail lines in existance and light rail lines being constructed? Currently, the streetcar operators have to "stop" at each single-point switch. This would increase the speeds.

2. Remove the closely spaced stops, where they can be serviced by another stop or station further apart. This would increase the speeds of the vehicles.

3. Implement "REAL" transit priority signals. Currently, we have left turn priority being given to single-occupant motor vehicles instead of the 100+ on board the streetcars. With real transit priority, streetcars leaving a stop would be able to activate their traffic signals ahead of time as they approach the next stop.

4. Outside cameras to record violations by motorists who disobey the rules of the road that involve the traffic signals or streetcars.

Couldn't the 512 ST. CLAIR streetcar be UPGRADED to become a new SPADINA LIGHT RAIL RAPID TRANSIT LINE? HOW?

1. Replace the single-point track switches with double-point tracks? Similar to the double-point track switches used by the heavy rail lines in existance and light rail lines being constructed? Currently, the streetcar operators have to "stop" at each single-point switch. This would increase the speeds.

2. Remove the closely spaced stops, where they can be serviced by another stop or station further apart. This would increase the speeds of the vehicles.

3. Implement "REAL" transit priority signals. Currently, we have left turn priority being given to single-occupant motor vehicles instead of the 100+ on board the streetcars. With real transit priority, streetcars leaving a stop would be able to activate their traffic signals ahead of time as they approach the next stop.

4. Outside cameras to record violations by motorists who disobey the rules of the road that involve the traffic signals or streetcars.



[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]W. K. Lis

Thee lists are the same. For 1, 3 and 4, will Eglinton have those?

2 seems the only one that stands out.

 

[Steve X]

So you're saying we should just abandon half our perfectly good streetcar network simply because some new vehicles aren't hitting arbitrary reliability targets? WTF?

Also, I'd like to know what defines a "failure" in both cases. A lot of times, a streetcar failure simply involves a reboot and takes less than 3 minutes.

Buses have to shut down and startup all the time when things go wrong, are those reported as "Failures"?

No where have I said abandon. I'm just pointing out TTC has a good excuse to not buy more streetcars at the moment and use buses as supplements. They need to get streetcars that actually meets the reliability. When they hit half life, their reliability will decline.

A failure is defined by the TTC as a delay lasting 5 minutes or more. With a lower reliability rate on the Flexity's, riders are more likely to experience a delay plus they hold up the entire line unlike buses.