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TTC: Streetcar Network

Steve X

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I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.
As for new buses, they are managing an average of over 20k km MDBF. The flexity's aren't even hitting 20k and we don't even know if they'll ever hit 20k nevermind 35k. Buses aren't as reliable as they get old but they can always get a new batch after 12-15 years. If these Flexity's decline to what the CLRVs did (5-10k MDBF), we are stuck with them for 30+ years. They weren't meant for 40 years. The ALRVs only lasted 30 and who knows what these defected BBD cars will last???

TTC might see this as a good option for lower ridership routes like the 502/503, 501L and 508 as well as trippers along the 501, 504 and 506.

I agree buses need bus garages and they shouldn't go with buses as that's not investment for the future. I'm just pointing out that since the upfront cost of building a new garage and getting buses is cheaper plus they are performing better than eh Flexity's, some councilors might support buses over streetcars. We'll have to wait to see what happens at the board meeting at the end of the month.
 

thettctransitfanatic

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I think you will find many who would disagree about buses being more reliable than streetcars - they certainly do not last for nearly as long. The just retired streetcars were 40+ years old. I would also point out that buses need garages too.
The CLRVs were not meant to last 40, but did, in large part because of TTC's good maintaince on the fleet. If they countine to do what they do, the Flexities will be short turning in the scrapyard in 20-30 years. Streetcars are more realible then buses. As others have said, as they age they become unrealible.
 

micheal_can

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The CLRVs were not meant to last 40, but did, in large part because of TTC's good maintaince on the fleet. If they countine to do what they do, the Flexities will be short turning in the scrapyard in 20-30 years. Streetcars are more realible then buses. As others have said, as they age they become unrealible.
You can keep anything going if you have to. The TTC should be getting a new contract for new Streetcars sooner than later. When the first current one hits 10 years, the first new one should be arriving. RThis would allow the older ones to be taken out of service to be rebuilt, and prevent a loss of service.
 

Johnny Au

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You can keep anything going if you have to. The TTC should be getting a new contract for new Streetcars sooner than later. When the first current one hits 10 years, the first new one should be arriving. RThis would allow the older ones to be taken out of service to be rebuilt, and prevent a loss of service.
Bring on the Flexity Outlook Mk. 2!
 

micheal_can

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I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.
 

W. K. Lis

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I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.
See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/spadina-rapid-transit-line-speculative.30467/

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-st-clair-streetcar-right-of-way.18048/post-1491663
 

Streety McCarface

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As for new buses, they are managing an average of over 20k km MDBF. The flexity's aren't even hitting 20k and we don't even know if they'll ever hit 20k nevermind 35k. Buses aren't as reliable as they get old but they can always get a new batch after 12-15 years. If these Flexity's decline to what the CLRVs did (5-10k MDBF), we are stuck with them for 30+ years. They weren't meant for 40 years. The ALRVs only lasted 30 and who knows what these defected BBD cars will last???

TTC might see this as a good option for lower ridership routes like the 502/503, 501L and 508 as well as trippers along the 501, 504 and 506.

I agree buses need bus garages and they shouldn't go with buses as that's not investment for the future. I'm just pointing out that since the upfront cost of building a new garage and getting buses is cheaper plus they are performing better than eh Flexity's, some councilors might support buses over streetcars. We'll have to wait to see what happens at the board meeting at the end of the month.
So you're saying we should just abandon half our perfectly good streetcar network simply because some new vehicles aren't hitting arbitrary reliability targets? WTF?

Also, I'd like to know what defines a "failure" in both cases. A lot of times, a streetcar failure simply involves a reboot and takes less than 3 minutes.

Buses have to shut down and startup all the time when things go wrong, are those reported as "Failures"?
 

micheal_can

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Couldn't the 512 ST. CLAIR streetcar be UPGRADED to become a new light rail rapid transit line? HOW?

1. Replace the single-point track switches with double-point tracks? Similar to the double-point track switches used by the heavy rail lines in existance and light rail lines being constructed? Currently, the streetcar operators have to "stop" at each single-point switch. This would increase the speeds.

2. Remove the closely spaced stops, where they can be serviced by another stop or station further apart. This would increase the speeds of the vehicles.

3. Implement "REAL" transit priority signals. Currently, we have left turn priority being given to single-occupant motor vehicles instead of the 100+ on board the streetcars. With real transit priority, streetcars leaving a stop would be able to activate their traffic signals ahead of time as they approach the next stop.

4. Outside cameras to record violations by motorists who disobey the rules of the road that involve the traffic signals or streetcars.
Couldn't the 512 ST. CLAIR streetcar be UPGRADED to become a new SPADINA LIGHT RAIL RAPID TRANSIT LINE? HOW?

1. Replace the single-point track switches with double-point tracks? Similar to the double-point track switches used by the heavy rail lines in existance and light rail lines being constructed? Currently, the streetcar operators have to "stop" at each single-point switch. This would increase the speeds.

2. Remove the closely spaced stops, where they can be serviced by another stop or station further apart. This would increase the speeds of the vehicles.

3. Implement "REAL" transit priority signals. Currently, we have left turn priority being given to single-occupant motor vehicles instead of the 100+ on board the streetcars. With real transit priority, streetcars leaving a stop would be able to activate their traffic signals ahead of time as they approach the next stop.

4. Outside cameras to record violations by motorists who disobey the rules of the road that involve the traffic signals or streetcars.



[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]W. K. Lis

Thee lists are the same. For 1, 3 and 4, will Eglinton have those?

2 seems the only one that stands out.
 

Steve X

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So you're saying we should just abandon half our perfectly good streetcar network simply because some new vehicles aren't hitting arbitrary reliability targets? WTF?

Also, I'd like to know what defines a "failure" in both cases. A lot of times, a streetcar failure simply involves a reboot and takes less than 3 minutes.

Buses have to shut down and startup all the time when things go wrong, are those reported as "Failures"?
No where have I said abandon. I'm just pointing out TTC has a good excuse to not buy more streetcars at the moment and use buses as supplements. They need to get streetcars that actually meets the reliability. When they hit half life, their reliability will decline.

A failure is defined by the TTC as a delay lasting 5 minutes or more. With a lower reliability rate on the Flexity's, riders are more likely to experience a delay plus they hold up the entire line unlike buses.
 

NoahB

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I would like to beat a dead horse.

When Eglinton opens it will be part of the RT not part of the Streetcar network. Why is that? And, why are we ok with that?. The surface section sounds like it is similar to St Clair and Spadina. The underground section is like the section along Queens Quay. I understand that the stops are spaced further apart, but not to the same distance as most of the RT stops are. I understand that there is a different track gauge, Line 3 will be the only line currently with the same gauge, standard gauge. The Subways and the streetcar lines all are to the Toronto gauge.

The Rt map should show all lines that are completely separated from traffic, then Eglinton would not be RT. If you say it is in it's own lane, the St Clair and Spadina should be added.
Because while the Crosstown vehicles "sound" like existing TTC streetcars, they actually are a different vehicle. They are from the same Flexity family, but the Crosstown Flexity Freedom is wider, faster, has doors on both sides, uses standard gauge, and can be coupled together. The TTC Flexity Outlook is designed for tight curves, uses TTC's gauge, and is single-ended.

They are similar but not the same.
 
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micheal_can

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Because while the Crosstown vehicles "sound" like existing TTC streetcars, they actually are a different vehicle. They are from the same Flexity family, but the Crosstown Flexity Freedom is wider, faster, has doors on both sides, uses standard gauge, and can be coupled together. The TTC Flexity Outlook is designed for tight curves, uses TTC's gauge, and is single-ended.

They are similar but not the same.
But the subway is all TTC gauge. Therefor, they are streetcars? That is my problem with the Crosstown. It is not an RT any ore than St Clair or Spadina is, but we are being convinced it is for something that could be argued out by existing equipment and construction.
 

W. K. Lis

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From TTC’s 2020-2029 Key Capital Investment Priorities: Subway Infrastructure and Accelerated Vehicle Procurements at this link:

Advancement of New Streetcars

Both the July 2018 Board report entitled New Streetcar Program – Resubmission of RFI Results for 60 Additional Streetcars regarding the procurement of additional streetcars and the 5-year Service Plan, identified the immediate need for 60 additional streetcars for reliability improvements and growth. The 60 streetcars will relieve crowding during peak service, accommodate increases in travel time due to traffic congestion and accommodate projected growth to approximately 2026. The 60 additional streetcars will allow buses that are currently supplementing streetcar service to return to operate on bus routes.
The TTC Capital Investment Plan identified the cost of the 60 streetcars at $418 million and the cost of associated infrastructure modifications required at TTC’s Hillcrest facility (1138 Bathurst Street) in the amount of $85 million. The existing three streetcar maintenance facilities can accommodate a total of 264 LFLRVs under crush load conditions. It is inefficient to operate under crush load conditions. Therefore, additional storage tracks will be required at TTC’s Hillcrest facility.
Future needs for streetcars in the Portlands and other streetcar network expansion would require the ordering of even more streetcars. Say 40+ more?
 

tmlittle

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No where have I said abandon. I'm just pointing out TTC has a good excuse to not buy more streetcars at the moment and use buses as supplements. They need to get streetcars that actually meets the reliability. When they hit half life, their reliability will decline.

A failure is defined by the TTC as a delay lasting 5 minutes or more. With a lower reliability rate on the Flexity's, riders are more likely to experience a delay plus they hold up the entire line unlike buses.
What's the alternative here? Alstom vehicles aren't exactly doing well in Ottawa right now, and continued overreliance on buses will slow down bus fleet renewal and electrification. It's also business for Thunder Bay, which strategically speaking needs to stay open if we're going to see the light rail industry actually grow in Ontario.
 

drum118

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What's the alternative here? Alstom vehicles aren't exactly doing well in Ottawa right now, and continued overreliance on buses will slow down bus fleet renewal and electrification. It's also business for Thunder Bay, which strategically speaking needs to stay open if we're going to see the light rail industry actually grow in Ontario.
CAF Urbos and Stadler. Then there is Siemens that has 95% of the US market. CRRC has a plant in Moncton, N.B

Canada is a small market and why most manufactures of streetcars don't exist in the first place. We have seen what happen to go to a sole supplier and why should taxpayers pay over price equipment to protect jobs for a few people? The US market is in the same boat.
 

NoahB

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But the subway is all TTC gauge. Therefor, they are streetcars? That is my problem with the Crosstown. It is not an RT any ore than St Clair or Spadina is, but we are being convinced it is for something that could be argued out by existing equipment and construction.
You disregarded all of the other vehicle differences I mentioned...
Your question works both ways: the RT and T1 trains both use the TTC gauge, are they streetcars?

The trains on the Crosstown share as many features with the TTC subway trains as they do with TTC streetcar rolling stock. For example, the Crosstown's Flexity Freedom has doors on both sides, so it can support both center platforms and side platforms at stations, like a subway train. They are also expected to be coupled together into longer trains, like a subway train. They are going to be automated inside the tunnels, like the subway. And so on.

The point is: You can't slap a dedicated lane on a regular bus or streetcar and pretend they are now BRT and LRT. St Clair or Spadina's streetcars cant do any of the above. Hence they are not called LRT in Toronto. (even though they tried to brand Spadina at launch as an LRT and it only caused confusion. That's another matter)
 

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