TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[ShonTron]

They aren't the ones taking the ads. Isn't it Pattison or someone like that? I think TTC's ability to say no within the contract is quite limited.

It's Pattison. The TTC can't do much, unless it's a matter of an ad being offensive. They'd have to renegotiate terms around ad wraps in the next advertisement contract negotiations.

 

[dowlingm]

I find it a bit annoying when objections to stuff like wraps are sometimes characterised as wanting to bin all $27m of TTC revenue from advertising, when really it's about giving up some of that revenue (wraps, intrusive shelter ads which impede seeing approaching vehicles etc.) and retaining less intrusive ones. And even then, at 500m+ rides and $27m, it's a nickel a ride.

 

[Edward Skira]

And even then, at 500m+ rides and $27m, it's a nickel a ride.

So how about we raise ticket prices a nickel. Do you think most riders would go for that? Or perhaps you could give the TTC the $27 million they need to run the system. I'll gladly accept even more ads if they can reduce prices or increase service.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I find it a bit annoying when objections to stuff like wraps are sometimes characterised as wanting to bin all $27m of TTC revenue from advertising, when really it's about giving up some of that revenue (wraps, intrusive shelter ads which impede seeing approaching vehicles etc.) and retaining less intrusive ones. And even then, at 500m+ rides and $27m, it's a nickel a ride.

The TTC gets zero in revenue from shelter ads. The bus shelters are not even owned by the city, but by Astral Street Furniture who get the revenue for the ads to cover the expenses for the street furniture.

 

[rbt]

I find it a bit annoying when objections to stuff like wraps are sometimes characterised as wanting to bin all $27m of TTC revenue from advertising, when really it's about giving up some of that revenue (wraps, intrusive shelter ads which impede seeing approaching vehicles etc.) and retaining less intrusive ones.

We have absolutely no idea how much of a %age the wraps are. It was tendered together. What we do know is the revenue doubled in the last agreement which coincided with the allowance for additional intrusive advertising; you might speculate they're related. Wouldn't surprise me if 75% of the value was in the extras.

Also, shelter advertising is not in that $27M. I believe that's mixed in with other street furniture like benches and trash bins.

 

[W. K. Lis]

WHAT?

Island TTC stops to be removed
TTC's move is aimed at paving way for new streetcars, which are fully accessible.

From link:

The TTC is doing away with island stops as it prepares to roll its new streetcars onto routes across the city and make them fully accessible.

The work will start in June at College and Bathurst, followed by work in July at College and Bay. Similar work is planned on the St. Clair streetcar line this summer.

City council voted Thursday to spend $1.5 million for work at the College stops.

“Streetcars will still serve customers at the stops but from the sidewalk,” said TTC communications advisor Kadeem Griffiths.

By moving the stops to the curbs, streetcar drivers will be able to lower and extend ramps for people using mobility devices. The way the island stops are built, there’s no way for that to happen.

The changes are part of the TTC’s work to make services and facilities accessible. Provincial legislation requiring that all public facilities be accessible will take effect in 2025.

If I read this right, the streetcar islands on College Street are being removed? And I thought they were only rebuilding some of the platforms on St. Clair?

Please clarify!

 

[Amare]

WHAT?
If I read this right, the streetcar islands on College Street are being removed? And I thought they were only rebuilding some of the platforms on St. Clair?

The College Street streetcar platforms need to be removed because many of them (ie: The ones College and Bay) are too narrow to allow ramps to be fully deployed. Curb cut outs need to be done at the same locations to allow mobility devices to be used. As for St.Clair, work still needs to be one on the platforms there to allow the ramps to align correctly with the platforms (the platforms are too high the way they are now).

What surprises me is the $1.5 million cost do to the work

 

[Megaton327]

If I read this right, the streetcar islands on College Street are being removed? And I thought they were only rebuilding some of the platforms on St. Clair?

Just to be clear, there are just 3 individual islands at 2 intersections being removed on the 506 route. The westbound island at Bathurst will remain (and be widened), only the eastbound island is being removed; then both islands at Bay are being removed later on. As far as I know, there are only 3 intersections along the entire length of the route that have islands--and I believe the third one at Gerrard and Main is wide enough/can be widened and is staying.

Your reply makes it sound like College is comparable in some way to St. Clair in terms of platforms; I'm not sure if you use either route frequently, but there is a rather substantial difference between them--on St. Clair the entire length of the route has platforms at every single surface stop as it runs in a dedicated right of way, while College runs in mixed traffic so there are only a few islands, located where passenger demand/safety needs necessitate them and the road/intersection size allows for their presence. The ones on St. Clair are a fundamental component of that route's service, and are being modified to match the level of the wheelchair ramp on the LFLRVs. The 3 platforms being removed on College cannot be modified because the road is too narrow to have platforms wide enough for a wheelchair user to use the ramp, which is an AODA legal issue, whereas all passengers can use the streetcar just fine from a sidewalk stop--these islands are in no way critical to the functioning of 506 service, most of its stops like most streetcar stops in the TTC are sidewalk/curb stops. Note that the westbound 506 platform at College and Bathurst will, in fact, be entirely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch to be wide+long enough for accessibility purposes (as there is enough room for it), exactly as the eastbound+westbound platforms at College and Spadina were rebuilt wider+longer during that intersection's reconstruction a little while ago.

 

[Duck]

On a normal 4-lane road, the streetcars usually use the centre two lanes, right? So are they suggesting that the track will cross a lane of traffic so it can be at the sidewalk, then curve back toward the centre?

 

[EnviroTO]

With islands why does the TTC need to deploy a ramp? Can't they build the island at a height and position to align with the door? Ramp deployment is a waste of time if you can avoid it by having a level island.

 

[Megaton327]

On a normal 4-lane road, the streetcars usually use the centre two lanes, right? So are they suggesting that the track will cross a lane of traffic so it can be at the sidewalk, then curve back toward the centre?

No, streetcars remain in the centre lanes when running in mixed traffic. As opposed to the track moving to and from the curb, passengers walk (or proceed with a mobility device via a curb cut) from the sidewalk to the streetcar doors (or accessibility ramp) in the centre lane of the roadway. Automobiles in the curb lane are legally required to stop behind the open doors of a streetcar--there is no need for the streetcar to move to the curb like with buses.

With islands why does the TTC need to deploy a ramp? Can't they build the island at a height and position to align with the door? Ramp deployment is a waste of time if you can avoid it by having a level island.

There would still be a gap between the streetcar door and the platform which would be too wide for safe traversal with some mobility devices--large gaps are, I believe, prohibited in AODA regulations. They could make the platform wider to meet the streetcar door, however in mixed-traffic routes that cannot be done as it could scrape cars. Note on St. Clair buses often use certain stretches of the ROW so it is similarly unfeasible there.

Overall, at the end of the day, some deployment of the ramp will always be required for the streetcars. In case you don't know, the ramp actually deploys to a much smaller extent (less than halfway by my estimates) at platform stops vs roadway stops due to not having to go as far down (or as far out to present a wheelchair-traversable slope). They could shave a couple of more centimetres off ramp deployment, potentially, at some percentage of the stops on certain ROW routes/in stations, but for a matter of just a couple of centimetres it's much easier to simply engineer all the platforms to be the same near-door height/distance (also prevents the driver from having too many settings to remember to select between when deploying the ramp).

 

[salsa]

Megaton327, your detailed explanations of the island modifications are much appreciated.

 

[Duck]

No, streetcars remain in the centre lanes when running in mixed traffic. As opposed to the track moving to and from the curb, passengers walk (or proceed with a mobility device via a curb cut) from the sidewalk to the streetcar doors (or accessibility ramp) in the centre lane of the roadway. Automobiles in the curb lane are legally required to stop behind the open doors of a streetcar--there is no need for the streetcar to move to the curb like with buses.

Yeah, I know that much, but that's what I'm asking - what are they proposing then? I don't understand what's changing. They talk about the streetcar going to the curb, which to me sounds like they're going to install little S bends everywhere to shuffle the train over a lane... Sounds like a nightmare.

To put it another way: when I read the original statement, the image above is what my mind makes... Which I know can't be right... So what are they actually doing.

 

[drum118]

Yeah, I know that much, but that's what I'm asking - what are they proposing then? I don't understand what's changing. They talk about the streetcar going to the curb, which to me sounds like they're going to install little S bends everywhere to shuffle the train over a lane... Sounds like a nightmare.

To put it another way: when I read the original statement, the image above is what my mind makes... Which I know can't be right... So what are they actually doing.

What you are thinking is stops that will have bump out platforms like Roncesvalle. This will reduce traffic lane down to one lane.

Another thought that was put out was a bump out platform that would be used by cars as well and cars would not be able to use the streetcar track area at all. The last I heard, this was DOA.

Bending the tracks to get the curb is never going to happen due to cost and dealing with traffic. If you remove on street parking, then having the tracks in the curb lane would work, but you are now dealing with right hand turning than left hand that can be worse in various locations.

 

[Fred.S]

With islands why does the TTC need to deploy a ramp? Can't they build the island at a height and position to align with the door? Ramp deployment is a waste of time if you can avoid it by having a level island.

My understanding (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that the new streetcars don't have active leveling, meaning that they can't adjust their height. Therefore, depending on the passenger load, the streetcar may not always align with a higher level platform. This is in contrast to the Flexity Freedom vehicles for the Crosstown, which will level to the height of the platform, and so won't need ramps.