nfitz
Superstar
Far Longer? Ford is proposing extending the current 5.5 km line by 12.5 km to make it 18 km. The funded Sheppard East LRT is only 12 km, and the funded Finch West LRT is only 11 km. Even the funded Eglinton LRT is only 19 km.
|
|
|
Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Where do you get that? The Metrolinx Big Move report says only 5,600 in 25 years time.
"It is estimated the system will see 70 to 80,000 weekday trips by 2031, including 13,800 boardings during morning rush hour."
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/835137--gridlock-until-2023
Sorry, I misread it, that's PPH, not PPHPD.
sakrio
New Member
How long do you think it will take to extend Sheppard West to Downsview if this ever gets going?
Hopefully Metrolinx decides to do elevated instead of tunnelled for Eglinton East. The current cost for that section is around $400 million, if they can do elevated for under $1B, that would certainly be worth it in my mind.
And I would definitely trade FWLRT for a westward extension of the ECLRT. Use those funds to push Eglinton to Pearson in 1 shot.
And 5,000 pphpd is in the upper areas of BRT, but I wouldn't exactly qualify it as "pushing BRT". I think curbside BRT can smoothly handle around 7,000 pphpd, especially in a more suburban environment. And I realize no one is really pushing for BRT right now, I'm just saying, it's a valid alternative, one that a lot of people are discounting. It's worked in Ottawa, it's worked in York Region, and it's working now in Brampton. What makes Finch West and Sheppard East so different?
nfitz
Superstar
That' seems closer to what is in Big Move - which I assume is 2034 - 16,300 boardings in AM Peak hour for the central section. Big Move is probably higher because it assumes the BRT is construction all the way from Halton to Durham, rather than just Bathurst to Markham, so presumably that would increase ridership.
Still, 5,600 peak point is better than the Mississauga Transitway which only has a peak point of 2,600 (or the proposed Metrolinx extension of that Transitway to Oakville, which has a peak point of only 900!)
nfitz
Superstar
I'll actually agree with you on that. I'd think grade-separating Leslie (perhaps just surface but to the south of Eglinton) and elevating the Jane-Weston bit (perhaps extending the tunnel a bit near the current portal) and elevating from Don Mills Road (dropping to the surface under the DVP ... or tunnelling a bit further east) would be sensible. That and reduce the number of stations to speed the line up.
Fair enough ... heck, I'd trade Finch West for Hurontario! The Hurontario line has a higher peak load, and almost double the riders as Finch West.
Still with the forecast peak demand of 4,500 (Metrolinx) then it might not be worthwhile spending half the money for something might be close to capacity ... though TTC estimates are actually lower ... and presumably ridership would drop if it was BRT. I wouldn't oppose proper BRT if it was proposed. But I don't think that's going to happen.
Asterix
Active Member
Ok, my numbers may have been off, but where is 12.5km coming from?
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=4309188 seems to show barely 9, less than you quote for Sheppard East and Finch West.
There are many different configurations that could be possible. I think at-grade on the south side of Eglinton between the Laird portal and just east of Leslie, tunnelled from there to Wynford, and then elevated from there to Kennedy would make a lot of sense. Not sure if it would make more sense to run it in-median or along the side of the road. In median may require a minor widening to fit the pillars, but along the side may require some expropriation and re-working of parking lots. Not sure which would be the better arrangement.
Haha, good call. Overall though, the West ECLRT will be of much greater use to the city at-large than the FWLRT, which is for all intensive purposes a feeder line to the subway. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just think at this point that trunk lines should take priority.
BRT would still be an improvement over the current bus service, that's for sure. And if it does get close to capacity, the beauty is that it would be relatively inexpensive to upgrade a parallel route (or a busy perpendicular route), so that some of the ridership is transferred. This way, not only are you providing enhanced service to new routes, you may also be providing some riders of the existing route with a more efficient way to reach their destination. Doing an upgrade on the same corridor may decrease congestion and marginally increase travel times, but it does nothing for riders on parallel or connecting corridors.
Also, if it's done as proper BRT, theoretically they can upgrade to LRT without having to widen the road ROW at all. This will save on costs later down the road.
And I agree, I don't think a full BRT is going to happen. But hey, even something like queue jump lanes and curbside cut outs would make a difference in the flow of the route.
Last edited:
nfitz
Superstar
I was using the distances from the TTC RTES report. 8.5km from Don Mills to Scarborough Centre ... and 4 km on Shepppard West from Yonge/Sheppard station to Downsview station. Ford has been very clear that the plan includes Yonge to Downsview (less clear is if it includes the Willowdale/Sheppard in-fill station that he showed on his original map between Bayview and Bessarion.
nfitz
Superstar
On many routes throughout the city. I've commented a few times that the bus on Don Mills moves a lot faster than it did when I used to take it 20 years ago, with the black diamond lanes - which work much better than everyone makes out.
Definitely. Take $100 million or so, identify key intersections on busy routes throughout the city, and add in queue jump lanes on these routes. I think people would be amazed how much more efficient the bus service would be, with no additional operational costs.
And living in Ottawa, I can personally vouch for how well the bus-only lanes on Woodroffe, and the queue jump lanes already in place on Baseline and Heron around the Rideau River work. The 118 (the main route along Baseline Rd) is much more efficient now that queue jump lanes are in place. It isn't really even a substantial upgrade, half of the queue jump lane is the dedicated right turn lane, so the ROW is already widened at that point.
Asterix
Active Member
Ahh yes. Forgot about that side. An even bigger gravy train expense.
accura407
Car is King
before the usual people ask me for "stats" and "proof"...
I think that the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, if built from Pearson to the current end point at Jane, would actually take demand off of the northern routes proposed...why?
When a commuter in Suburban Toronto is travelling to Downtown, they know that...heading down to Bloor...it is a fairly fast trip until you go south of Eglinton! That's where the transition from pre-war to post-war development happens. Of course there are exceptions to that rule mainly between Bathurst/Bayview...but for the most part this theory is true.
So that being said...when a transit rider in North-West Toronto (North Etobicoke) is deciding which way to go Downtown...today they are basically screwed either way....but they will probably go for the Spadina Line or Yonge Line because going across the city on wide suburban avenues is going to be faster than crawling down narrow streets to Bloor.
If a rapid transit line on Eglinton is available, suddenly the dynamics of travelling would change! The travelling distance from Finch to Eglinton along the many wide suburban avenues takes just a matter of minutes, and having express routes along Weston/Royal York, Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove would surely funnel more riders DOWN to Eglinton instead of going ACROSS Finch.
The distance between Eglinton and Bloor maybe little, but the change in infrastructure/road layout is dramatic. That's why the only exception to this rule is Hwy 27, which is served by the rocket and takes commuters quickly to Kipling Station via Hwy 427.
In the East End, with the absence of rapid transit along Sheppard, i think the same Eglinton Draw will be present. Commuters at Warden and Sheppard might find its actually faster to just travel to Warden and Eglinton and then have a comfortable ride up to Yonge & Eglinton...Even if there is a Don Mills subway station relatively nearby.
A study has to be done to see how much ridership will be drawn out of Sheppard/Finch if there was a Eglinton Rapid Transit Line running the entire Length from Pearson (also in future Square 1) to Malvern Town Centre...i think the draw will be big... especially in the east...due to its diagonal unique route + ability to transfer at Yonge & Eglinton.
Lastly...Yonge & Eglinton is a far better interchange to build on then Yonge & Bloor because the station already has a centre platform...so add extra platforms on both sides (see union station) and do the same for the Eglinton and the result is...a far easier interchange than Yonge & Bloor will ever be!
I think that the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, if built from Pearson to the current end point at Jane, would actually take demand off of the northern routes proposed...why?
When a commuter in Suburban Toronto is travelling to Downtown, they know that...heading down to Bloor...it is a fairly fast trip until you go south of Eglinton! That's where the transition from pre-war to post-war development happens. Of course there are exceptions to that rule mainly between Bathurst/Bayview...but for the most part this theory is true.
So that being said...when a transit rider in North-West Toronto (North Etobicoke) is deciding which way to go Downtown...today they are basically screwed either way....but they will probably go for the Spadina Line or Yonge Line because going across the city on wide suburban avenues is going to be faster than crawling down narrow streets to Bloor.
If a rapid transit line on Eglinton is available, suddenly the dynamics of travelling would change! The travelling distance from Finch to Eglinton along the many wide suburban avenues takes just a matter of minutes, and having express routes along Weston/Royal York, Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove would surely funnel more riders DOWN to Eglinton instead of going ACROSS Finch.
The distance between Eglinton and Bloor maybe little, but the change in infrastructure/road layout is dramatic. That's why the only exception to this rule is Hwy 27, which is served by the rocket and takes commuters quickly to Kipling Station via Hwy 427.
In the East End, with the absence of rapid transit along Sheppard, i think the same Eglinton Draw will be present. Commuters at Warden and Sheppard might find its actually faster to just travel to Warden and Eglinton and then have a comfortable ride up to Yonge & Eglinton...Even if there is a Don Mills subway station relatively nearby.
A study has to be done to see how much ridership will be drawn out of Sheppard/Finch if there was a Eglinton Rapid Transit Line running the entire Length from Pearson (also in future Square 1) to Malvern Town Centre...i think the draw will be big... especially in the east...due to its diagonal unique route + ability to transfer at Yonge & Eglinton.
Lastly...Yonge & Eglinton is a far better interchange to build on then Yonge & Bloor because the station already has a centre platform...so add extra platforms on both sides (see union station) and do the same for the Eglinton and the result is...a far easier interchange than Yonge & Bloor will ever be!
Last edited:
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Wonder if the escalating price of crude oil (touched $100 today, Wednesday, was $83 back in October). But of course, the Ford brothers are multi-millionaires and drive around in gas-guzzling SUV's, so the price increases wouldn't force them to take public transit like the rest of us peasants. Just make sure we get out of their way as they continue to drive.