Transit City Plan

[nfitz]

before the usual people ask me for "stats" and "proof"... I think that the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, if built from Pearson to the current end point at Jane, would actually take demand off of the northern routes proposed...why?

You make some decent points, and there's some truth to it ... though given that the subway station at Keele and Finch (Finch West) is already under construction, I'd think that once that is completed - and especially if the Finch West LRT is completed, then this would limit the demand reduction on northern routes.

The travelling distance from Finch to Eglinton along the many wide suburban avenues takes just a matter of minutes, and having express routes along Weston/Royal York, Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove would surely funnel more riders DOWN to Eglinton instead of going ACROSS Finch.

I'm not overly familiar with travel over there, except for the odd trip to Downsview and York U, which I use the subway and transitway. Looking at the current schedule, it would improve somewhat with express routes, but the current AM southward travel time from Finch/Islington to Eglinton/Islington is 23 minutes; but only 21 minutes from Finch/Islington to Finch/Keele (Finch West station). As Finch West is scheduled to open in 2015, and Eglinton will be 2020 or later if it's constructed, then I don't think the effect you are expecting will happen. Though it will certainly start to change patterns south of 401.

Perhaps what we need for northwest Etobicoke, is to go back to the original 30-year old Sheppard subway plans, which showed a possible extension fron Downsview through Downsview Park to near Keele/Sheppard and then up to Finch and east to Highway 27. Perhaps that route doesn't make much sense anymore ... but maybe one day there's some kind of line from Downsview through the new Downsview Park development, Jane/Finch, Humber College, Woodbine ... and I guess the next obvious node is Pearson, and then the Renforth Transitway station.

OMG, I'm turning into a FFFordie! Quick, take all my cash ... you didn't see that.

 

[accura407]

Good point...I completely forgot about Finch West station (even though I live right near the subway terminus VCC). Steeles West will make it even much better because Steeles is a very fast and efficient arterial that would allow commuters in northern etobicoke easy and quick access to the subway line.

Finch West, while one concession east of Jane/Finch, will surely be able to take care of providing transit to a "low-income priority" area. I don't think anyone at Jane/Finch will be impacted by not having an LRT there for the time being.

The real impact will be for northern etobicoke, as they lack proximity to both north/south and east/west rapid transit lines. But as I was saying in my example, if the eglinton crosstown went to pearson, I think northern etobicoke will be served particularily well. Just put in proper queue-jump lanes and bus priority on Weston/Royal York, Islington, Kipling, and Martin Grove. If all 4 of those corridors had a basic express service, you would be able to improve the transit conditions for northern etocioke tremendously!

I'm not saying don't build the finch west lrt, but if I had to choose between that and an entire crosstown from end to end...I would definitely choose the latter.

Another route that needs emphasis is the hwy 27 rocket. That route should be prioritized as a means of getting commuters from the martin grove and hwy 27 areas and shuttling them to eglinton & martingrove (station)

If all these measures were put in place, I am confident that numbers along Finch West will surely drop and become more of a local route to shuttle passengers from north york to the subway rather than a long-haul route from northern etobicoke.

 

[gweed123]

Accura407: I think you do make some good points. I think that people are generally underestimating the ability of the Eglinton Crosstown to intercept southbound AM traffic bound for the Bloor-Danforth subway. Unless people have destinations directly along the Bloor line, I would expect to see a high degree of passenger turnover at Eglinton once that line opens, with very few thru passengers going down to Bloor. This will alleviate the pressure on both St. George and Bloor-Yonge, but increase pressure on the Yonge and Spadina subways between Bloor and Eglinton.

If the Eglinton line is going to be truly effective, I believe it needs to be interlined with the Jane and Don Mills LRTs, providing an interlined service through the tunnel portion.

But overall, I do think that the Eglinton Crosstown will have a profound effect on travel patterns, particularly between St. Clair and the 401. That whole corridor is going to see a drastic shift in how people move, and what routes they take in order to get where they want to go.

 

[Rainforest]

Finch West

When debating Finch West LRT, let's not forget that:

1) The route was trimmed (to west of Keele only) even before Ford came to power. Such a trimmed route would actually inconvenience some of the riders (those who travel from Rexdale towards Yonge and would have to transfer to a bus at Keele).

2) Except for some preparatory work, the construction of even that trimmed line would not start before 2015.

3) At about $1.2 billion, the cost of Finch West LRT is much lower than that of Eglinton Crosstown, DRL, or any significant subway extension.

Therefore, even if FWLRT loses its funding now, it has a chance of being resurrected next time the government decides to spend some money on transit. Under favorable circumstances, it might get funded in full (Humber College to Yonge) from the beginning, and the construction might even start not much later than 2015.

 

[Rainforest]

Eglinton - SLRT

The idea to through-route Eglinton and SLRT has both pros and cons.

Advantages: 1) Reusing the existing SRT corridor is cheaper than digging a new tunnel for Danforth subway. Hence, it is more likely that they can reach Seneca College and Sheppard / Markham. 2) Service to the Lawrence East Stn cluster is preserved. 3) To some extent, this configuration helps to relief Yonge-Bloor by shifting some transfers to Yonge-Eglinton.

Issue: demand on two sections of the combined line might push the limits of LRT technology. One such section is Scarborough Centre to Kennedy Stn, it will take riders from Scarborough to both downtown and locations along Yonge. The other section is west of Don Mills to Yonge, where riders from Scarborough and Golden Mile will be joined by riders transferring from the 54 Lawrence East and 100 Flemmington buses.

The capacity limit of the line running 3-car LRT trains (500 people per train) on 2-min headways is about 15,000 pphpd; this is higher than the demand projected during the next 20 years, but what about more distant future?

The Don Mills - Yonge section can be relieved by building DRL East to Eglinton. It is not obvious though how to relief the STC - Kennedy section .

 

[accura407]

And looking at the all these trip trends...it makes me wonder how some people still think Eglinton does not justify full grade seperation!

How can the SRT demand grade seperation but Eglinton (from Leslie to Kennedy) does not even though it is going to intercept many many passengers from the Bloor-Line?

Finch W and Sheppard may be fine with in median LRT but this whole constant argument about Eglinton in the same configuration just doesn't hold up!

In response to the cost of building eglinton crosstown lrt, once the line does reach Jane, the remaining length to martin grove will be ridiculously cheap...there's a whole ROW just crying out to be used...the connection to pearson would be expensive though...having to navigate its way through that mega interchange

 

[Automation Gallery]

Wonder if the escalating price of crude oil (touched $100 today, Wednesday, was $83 back in October). But of course, the Ford brothers are multi-millionaires and drive around in gas-guzzling SUV's, so the price increases wouldn't force them to take public transit like the rest of us peasants. Just make sure we get out of their way as they continue to drive.

Hahaha.. 100 bucks thats peanuts, wait till it gets to $200 and then let me know who's still driving those so called gas-guzzling SUV's.

 

[nfitz]

2) Except for some preparatory work, the construction of even that trimmed line would not start before 2015.

After Metrolinx cut back to Jane, and delayed Finch and the SRT to 2020, they had the 5 in 10 presentation in May 2010, which says that they would award the tunnel boring machine contract in June 2010 (done), and then start Portal construction in the west in January 2011, and in the east in January 2012. Tunnelling from the west was to start in January 2012. When Ford was elected, they had already tendered the contract the the tunnel liner segments, and presumably they were on the verge of tendering the portal construction contract - which is now delayed because of this rework. I wouldn't call portal construction and tunnelling "preparation work".

If you look at the cash flows, there was to be almost as much or more money spent on Eglinton as there was to be on Sheppard in each year from 2010 to 2015. Presumably with Sheppard dead, there is more money now available to proceed on Eglinton faster (and 2 boring machines that are now available much earlier if they won't be digging the Don Mills Road to Consumers Road tunnels first). Eglinton is now being delayed by this situation.

 

[gweed123]

When debating Finch West LRT, let's not forget that:

1) The route was trimmed (to west of Keele only) even before Ford came to power. Such a trimmed route would actually inconvenience some of the riders (those who travel from Rexdale towards Yonge and would have to transfer to a bus at Keele).

2) Except for some preparatory work, the construction of even that trimmed line would not start before 2015.

3) At about $1.2 billion, the cost of Finch West LRT is much lower than that of Eglinton Crosstown, DRL, or any significant subway extension.

Therefore, even if FWLRT loses its funding now, it has a chance of being resurrected next time the government decides to spend some money on transit. Under favorable circumstances, it might get funded in full (Humber College to Yonge) from the beginning, and the construction might even start not much later than 2015.

I wonder if the TTC could identify any specific locations for road widenings (I'm thinking queue jump lanes) now, so that when funding is announced and plan is put back on track, some of the 'prep' work (road widenings, pipe relocations, etc) is already done. If you can find some locations that would both improve bus flow, and be able to directly incorporate the LRT ROW design into it, why not earmark a few million and do those upgrades now? It'll only lower the pricetag later on, and it'll make the situation better now.

 

[gweed123]

The idea to through-route Eglinton and SLRT has both pros and cons.

Advantages: 1) Reusing the existing SRT corridor is cheaper than digging a new tunnel for Danforth subway. Hence, it is more likely that they can reach Seneca College and Sheppard / Markham. 2) Service to the Lawrence East Stn cluster is preserved. 3) To some extent, this configuration helps to relief Yonge-Bloor by shifting some transfers to Yonge-Eglinton.

Issue: demand on two sections of the combined line might push the limits of LRT technology. One such section is Scarborough Centre to Kennedy Stn, it will take riders from Scarborough to both downtown and locations along Yonge. The other section is west of Don Mills to Yonge, where riders from Scarborough and Golden Mile will be joined by riders transferring from the 54 Lawrence East and 100 Flemmington buses.

The capacity limit of the line running 3-car LRT trains (500 people per train) on 2-min headways is about 15,000 pphpd; this is higher than the demand projected during the next 20 years, but what about more distant future?

The Don Mills - Yonge section can be relieved by building DRL East to Eglinton. It is not obvious though how to relief the STC - Kennedy section .

The Ottawa LRT is projected to hit 24,000 pphpd by 2031. They're accomodating this by providing complete grade separation, and the ability to run 6 car trainsets. If the section along Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy is grade-separated, they should have no problem accomodating the increase in capacity that you're forecasting. But you're right, if it is kept as at-grade, that section will be the limiting capacity factor on a line that otherwise would be able to carry practically double.

 

[Amy Rose]

The Ottawa LRT is projected to hit 24,000 pphpd by 2031. They're accomodating this by providing complete grade separation, and the ability to run 6 car trainsets. If the section along Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy is grade-separated, they should have no problem accomodating the increase in capacity that you're forecasting. But you're right, if it is kept as at-grade, that section will be the limiting capacity factor on a line that otherwise would be able to carry practically double.

Its possible to achieve 6 car trainsets in the SLRT and tunneled portion, but it would have to be short turning at DonMills and Jane and Kennedy. The other option is to possibly have 3 car trainsets to be coupled and de coupled, but It would depend between 2 track or 4 track stations, since there might be some 3 car LRVs in the grade separated portions, and I don't know the time it takes to safely couple and decouple the trainset, along with the fact that you would have angry passengers in the last 3 cars. In terms of bunching up, you could make the traffic lights do their wonders for which they can help separate the vehicles to a certain extent.

 

[Electrify]

Perhaps what we need for northwest Etobicoke, is to go back to the original 30-year old Sheppard subway plans, which showed a possible extension fron Downsview through Downsview Park to near Keele/Sheppard and then up to Finch and east to Highway 27. Perhaps that route doesn't make much sense anymore ... but maybe one day there's some kind of line from Downsview through the new Downsview Park development, Jane/Finch, Humber College, Woodbine ... and I guess the next obvious node is Pearson, and then the Renforth Transitway station.

OMG, I'm turning into a FFFordie! Quick, take all my cash ... you didn't see that.

You know, I really liked Smitherman's plan for north Toronto. Finch would go from Humber College to Finch West station, the Sheppard subway would go from Downsview to Don Mills, and the Sheppard East LRT would continue from Don Mills to UfT Scarborough. What this means is that the lesser used ends of the lines would be serviced by light rail, while the central portion would be serviced by higher capacity heavy rail.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

You know, I really liked Smitherman's plan for north Toronto. Finch would go from Humber College to Finch West station, the Sheppard subway would go from Downsview to Don Mills, and the Sheppard East LRT would continue from Don Mills to UfT Scarborough. What this means is that the lesser used ends of the lines would be serviced by light rail, while the central portion would be serviced by higher capacity heavy rail.

but but but the single seat crosstown route!!!

Yeah I do agree though.

 

[Rainforest]

After Metrolinx cut back to Jane, and delayed Finch and the SRT to 2020, they had the 5 in 10 presentation in May 2010, which says that they would award the tunnel boring machine contract in June 2010 (done), and then start Portal construction in the west in January 2011, and in the east in January 2012. Tunnelling from the west was to start in January 2012. When Ford was elected, they had already tendered the contract the the tunnel liner segments, and presumably they were on the verge of tendering the portal construction contract - which is now delayed because of this rework. I wouldn't call portal construction and tunnelling "preparation work".

If you look at the cash flows, there was to be almost as much or more money spent on Eglinton as there was to be on Sheppard in each year from 2010 to 2015. Presumably with Sheppard dead, there is more money now available to proceed on Eglinton faster (and 2 boring machines that are now available much earlier if they won't be digging the Don Mills Road to Consumers Road tunnels first). Eglinton is now being delayed by this situation.

I was talking about Finch, not Sheppard.

I know that Sheppard was on the brink of construction start. However, did not hear of any plans to start tunneling on Finch (presumably, entrance to Finch / Keele Stn) before 2015.

Regarding Eglinton, hopefully they will proceed as planned. The design for the tunneled segment is not going change, with the possible exception of portals.

 

[nfitz]

I was talking about Finch, not Sheppard.

Fair enough - I was talking about Eglinton not Sheppard!

Regarding Eglinton, hopefully they will proceed as planned. The design for the tunneled segment is not going change, with the possible exception of portals.

However, all the 2011 construction was on the west portal, which is where the first 2 TBMs would go in, in early 2012. No portal, not tunnel ... at least until there is agreement on where a portal would be.