Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Fair enough - I was talking about Eglinton not Sheppard!

However, all the 2011 construction was on the west portal, which is where the first 2 TBMs would go in, in early 2012. No portal, not tunnel ... at least until there is agreement on where a portal would be.

The SLRT was scheduled to open 1 year after the Eglinton Crosstown, correct? If so, a delay of one year (replanning of the west portal, and changing the plan for Eglinton East) may not entirely be a bad thing, as then they could open up the entire Jane to Sheppard Crosstown in 1 shot, instead of opening it up in two consecutive but unconnected segments.

This is of course assuming that they can get the planning done on the upgraded Eglinton East section asap.

 

[gweed123]

Its possible to achieve 6 car trainsets in the SLRT and tunneled portion, but it would have to be short turning at DonMills and Jane and Kennedy. The other option is to possibly have 3 car trainsets to be coupled and de coupled, but It would depend between 2 track or 4 track stations, since there might be some 3 car LRVs in the grade separated portions, and I don't know the time it takes to safely couple and decouple the trainset, along with the fact that you would have angry passengers in the last 3 cars. In terms of bunching up, you could make the traffic lights do their wonders for which they can help separate the vehicles to a certain extent.

Having people on hand to couple and decouple trains would be a waste of resources, and it would also slow the line down incredibly. For all the extra headache, I still think it would just be better to grade-separate Eglinton East, that way there are no concerns over future capacity, which trains can run on what part of the line, etc. A uniform, high capacity, high speed, grade separated line from end to end.

 

[nfitz]

The SLRT was scheduled to open 1 year after the Eglinton Crosstown, correct? If so, a delay of one year (replanning of the west portal, and changing the plan for Eglinton East) may not entirely be a bad thing, as then they could open up the entire Jane to Sheppard Crosstown in 1 shot, instead of opening it up in two consecutive but unconnected segments.

Perhaps ... but another scenario is that the provincial government changes in the meantime, and we won't have had the major construction start on Eglinton and the first tunelling contract already awarded like we were supposed to.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Having people on hand to couple and decouple trains would be a waste of resources, and it would also slow the line down incredibly. For all the extra headache, I still think it would just be better to grade-separate Eglinton East, that way there are no concerns over future capacity, which trains can run on what part of the line, etc. A uniform, high capacity, high speed, grade separated line from end to end.

This may all go back to LRT vs HRT on this line. I would have preferred some sections to be at-grade just to allow for a more cost effective extension of the line but this obviously will reduce capacity and speed and reliability. But those were always going to be the trade offs. Where we are now, with additional funding moved to Eglinton, and I'm sure we've heard it all before, the line should be switched to HRT. If we plan to go with full grade separation, the additional costs to move to subway should be easily justified. There was a long debate about this because of the costs associated and the fact we would have to come up with the additional funds. Well thanks to Ford's plan, the additional funding may be there. Yes the stations will be bigger, the equipment and maintenance will be higher, but we've gone this far ... (never thought I would hear myself saying the above)

My counter point on this would be to rethink the plan as a whole. We now have these additional funds, perhaps enough to provide grade separation from Jane to Kennedy. My proposal would be to tunnel the original portion from east of Jane to West of Leslie and prepare an revisit the Don Mills LRT plan and a possible DRL. Once the tunneled section is completed, we should have enough funding to complete the surface portions of the route (Jane to 427? Airport? and Leslie to Kennedy? or further east) and perhaps funding would become available for a DRL as an LRT. My thought at this time is even if we only build one half of the DRL we buy some time for the Yonge Line.

I know the DRL is low on the priority list, but from the way things are going so is FWLRT, Jane LRT, etc. With the new subway extension to Finch West this LRT line may not be worth the investment at this time.

 

[gweed123]

This may all go back to LRT vs HRT on this line. I would have preferred some sections to be at-grade just to allow for a more cost effective extension of the line but this obviously will reduce capacity and speed and reliability. But those were always going to be the trade offs. Where we are now, with additional funding moved to Eglinton, and I'm sure we've heard it all before, the line should be switched to HRT. If we plan to go with full grade separation, the additional costs to move to subway should be easily justified. There was a long debate about this because of the costs associated and the fact we would have to come up with the additional funds. Well thanks to Ford's plan, the additional funding may be there. Yes the stations will be bigger, the equipment and maintenance will be higher, but we've gone this far ... (never thought I would hear myself saying the above)

My counter point on this would be to rethink the plan as a whole. We now have these additional funds, perhaps enough to provide grade separation from Jane to Kennedy. My proposal would be to tunnel the original portion from east of Jane to West of Leslie and prepare an revisit the Don Mills LRT plan and a possible DRL. Once the tunneled section is completed, we should have enough funding to complete the surface portions of the route (Jane to 427? Airport? and Leslie to Kennedy? or further east) and perhaps funding would become available for a DRL as an LRT. My thought at this time is even if we only build one half of the DRL we buy some time for the Yonge Line.

I know the DRL is low on the priority list, but from the way things are going so is FWLRT, Jane LRT, etc. With the new subway extension to Finch West this LRT line may not be worth the investment at this time.

I've had this debate with myself several times (the HRT vs LRT debate). I've flip flopped back and forth on it a lot, and I've come to this conclusion: if the line is going to be completely grade-separated, and the cost of HRT vs LRT is basically equal, the technology choice should be which ever provides the greater opportunity for interlining. If interlining with lines to the south is of greater importance (ex: the DRL), then go with HRT. If interlining with lines to the north is of greater importance (the Jane and Don Mills LRTs), then go with LRT.

I think Eglinton, in order to maximize its effectiveness, needs to be interlined with one or more N-S routes. The more ridership that Eglinton is able to draw, the more it will draw away from the nearly-overcrowded B-D line. And if it's interlined with the DRL, the more it will be able to draw from YUS as well.

The case can be made either way, it all just depends on which interlining scenario you see as most valuable, and easiest/most practical to implement.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

I've had this debate with myself several times (the HRT vs LRT debate). I've flip flopped back and forth on it a lot, and I've come to this conclusion: if the line is going to be completely grade-separated, and the cost of HRT vs LRT is basically equal, the technology choice should be which ever provides the greater opportunity for interlining. If interlining with lines to the south is of greater importance (ex: the DRL), then go with HRT. If interlining with lines to the north is of greater importance (the Jane and Don Mills LRTs), then go with LRT.

I think Eglinton, in order to maximize its effectiveness, needs to be interlined with one or more N-S routes. The more ridership that Eglinton is able to draw, the more it will draw away from the nearly-overcrowded B-D line. And if it's interlined with the DRL, the more it will be able to draw from YUS as well.

The case can be made either way, it all just depends on which interlining scenario you see as most valuable, and easiest/most practical to implement.

Maybe the bigger issue is to interline or not. I wonder if the TTC will ever change their position on this. Although these days the frequency of trains on the YUS may be too high to allow for it, but we already have two potential ways to take some pressure off Bloor Station (assuming some people don't mind a short walk from University to Yonge). Every third or whatever number train from Kennedy can make the switch down University to St. Andrew and the same can be done for trains from Kippling to head down to St. Andrew. This may work on the University side as it is less congested.

This relates to the Eglinton debate because if we stuck with either mode LRT or HRT and had the ability to have a train divert either north or south would the TTC go for it?

 

[Dan416]

I think the only thing forcing Eglinton to be LRT is the fact that we purchased LRVs already (or signed the contract for LRVs, to be precise), which kinda sucks because LRVs cost more than subways, from what I recall.

I think we have to wait and see the final plan, but if this new Eglinton line is FULLY grade separated, you have to wonder why not just go with subway. That said, you know the TTC, if the line was subway the stations would grow to grotesque proportions and the cost of the line would increase as well. At least as LRT the stations will be kept smaller and a more reasonable size.

I think the Eglinton line should be operated the same way as the subway system: fare paid areas and all that.

 

[rbt]

I think the only thing forcing Eglinton to be LRT is the fact that we purchased LRVs already (or signed the contract for LRVs, to be precise), which kinda sucks because LRVs cost more than subways, from what I recall.

I am still hopeful that additional funding will be found to take Eglinton to the airport after a change in mayor allows it to be done via the surface.

I do not want another $10B to be spent taking Eglinton to the airport underground.

 

[lead82]

Certainly this can be done on the surface and NOT impede traffic as there is plenty of room on the north side of Eglinton for the LRT line. Lets get the Eglinton line built and open. Once it's running there will be demand to extend it out to the airport/Sauga border.

 

[jje1000]

I am still hopeful that additional funding will be found to take Eglinton to the airport after a change in mayor allows it to be done via the surface.

I do not want another $10B to be spent taking Eglinton to the airport underground.

We also happen to now own four tunnel boring machines designed for Eglinton. It's yet another sunk cost along with the LRVs.

The pieces have all basically fallen into place. It's all up to the provincial elections now.

 

[Rainforest]

I've had this debate with myself several times (the HRT vs LRT debate). I've flip flopped back and forth on it a lot, and I've come to this conclusion: if the line is going to be completely grade-separated, and the cost of HRT vs LRT is basically equal, the technology choice should be which ever provides the greater opportunity for interlining. If interlining with lines to the south is of greater importance (ex: the DRL), then go with HRT. If interlining with lines to the north is of greater importance (the Jane and Don Mills LRTs), then go with LRT.

I think Eglinton, in order to maximize its effectiveness, needs to be interlined with one or more N-S routes. The more ridership that Eglinton is able to draw, the more it will draw away from the nearly-overcrowded B-D line. And if it's interlined with the DRL, the more it will be able to draw from YUS as well.

The case can be made either way, it all just depends on which interlining scenario you see as most valuable, and easiest/most practical to implement.

I think that the schedule of implementation has become an extremely important factor. No design exists for Eglinton HRT, while the design for LRT exists and a large part of it (the tunnel) remains applicable even with changes in outer portions. If the design process has to be restarted to accommodate HRT, the window of opportunity might close by the time it is ready. We will have two nice designs (one for LRT and one for HRT) but no actual line ever built.

The coming provincial elections is obviously the first challenge. But even if the Transit City funding survives that election (McGuinty holds on, or Hudak promises to preserve it), more challenges might be coming. There might be a minority government that won't survive the full 4 years; and any government might recall the transit funding if it faces severe budgetary problems.

 

[jje1000]

Is it not possible to brush up some of the old designs for Eglinton West, or at least the designs already done when the project was cancelled? I guess the area's changed already and the plans do need some updating to the latest code.

Edit: Since they are for Eglinton West, I guess they can't be used in the short while.

 

[Rainforest]

Is it not possible to brush up some of the old designs for Eglinton West, or at least the designs already done when the project was cancelled? I guess the area's changed already and the plans do need some updating to the latest code.

Edit: Since they are for Eglinton West, I guess they can't be used in the short while.

Moreover, that design was for a 5-station chunk only (Eglinton West to Black Creek).

 

[gweed123]

I am still hopeful that additional funding will be found to take Eglinton to the airport after a change in mayor allows it to be done via the surface.

I do not want another $10B to be spent taking Eglinton to the airport underground.

My preference is still trenched through the Richview corridor, and decked over at certain important spots where they want to keep a park.

 

[gweed123]

I think that the schedule of implementation has become an extremely important factor. No design exists for Eglinton HRT, while the design for LRT exists and a large part of it (the tunnel) remains applicable even with changes in outer portions. If the design process has to be restarted to accommodate HRT, the window of opportunity might close by the time it is ready. We will have two nice designs (one for LRT and one for HRT) but no actual line ever built.

Good point.

The coming provincial elections is obviously the first challenge. But even if the Transit City funding survives that election (McGuinty holds on, or Hudak promises to preserve it), more challenges might be coming. There might be a minority government that won't survive the full 4 years; and any government might recall the transit funding if it faces severe budgetary problems.

Hopefully they'll be able to get Eglinton far enough along in the next 9 months that cancelling it will a) cost a shitload of money, to the point where it would be more worthwhile to just keep building, and b) create really bad political optics. Time will tell.