Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Eglinton might actually be a better transfer point than Bloor-yonge anyways, we're designing it from scratch and have quite a bit more space to play around with. In fact diverting people off BD would probably remove the need to remodel Bloor-Yonge, freeing up however many millions of dollars for other projects. In the medium term the increased traffic could well force DRL sooner than otherwise expected.

I was thinking the same thing. Not only does Eglinton have the possibility of intercepting a lot of southbound traffic along N-S arterials, it also has the potential of distributing the load that would normally be placed on Bloor-Yonge.

One possibility I have been mentally toying with is pushing the short-turn location on the Spadina line up to Eglinton West from St. Clair West. This would ensure that every 3rd southbound train or so leaving Eglinton West in the AM would be empty, and able to accommodate all the traffic from the Eglinton Crosstown. The incentive of being able to board an empty train I think will convince a lot of people to take the Crosstown an extra couple of stops to board YUS at Eglinton West instead of Yonge. This would involve the installation of crossover tracks just south of Eglinton West, however.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

I believe the short turn is going to be pushed north to Glencairn this year and then up to Wilson once the Spadina extension opens.

 

[accura407]

Well I know there is a pocket track just north of glencairn station so I'm pretty sure that would work fine too...

Glencairn on its own will not fill up a train so when it hits eglinton west, it will be fine...

Problem solved! No additional costs

 

[jje1000]

I'm hoping that Ford will renege on his "everything underground!" policy and allow at least portions of Eglinton (and possible Sheppard) to be built above ground.

But that's hopeful thinking, right?

 

[EnviroTO]

...Ok, now what about the other 3/4 of Transit City???

Eglinton underground plus SRT was the largest cost of Transit City... maybe 1/2 the total. About 50% of the money spend on fully grade separated (Eglinton + SRT) and 50% spent on at grade. Still doesn't seem like a one size fits all fetish. You mean the rest of it as in what Ford will run buses on? Buses are run everywhere in this city... is there some kind of bus fetish?

 

[gweed123]

Well I know there is a pocket track just north of glencairn station so I'm pretty sure that would work fine too...

Glencairn on its own will not fill up a train so when it hits eglinton west, it will be fine...

Problem solved! No additional costs

There you go. That may be a decent solution then, and it will encourage more people to use the Spadina subway instead of the Yonge subway.

 

[gweed123]

Eglinton underground plus SRT was the largest cost of Transit City... maybe 1/2 the total. About 50% of the money spend on fully grade separated (Eglinton + SRT) and 50% spent on at grade. Still doesn't seem like a one size fits all fetish. You mean the rest of it as in what Ford will run buses on? Buses are run everywhere in this city... is there some kind of bus fetish?

I was referring to the amount of track. About 3/4 of Transit City was in-median LRT. The only places where they weren't doing in-median LRT was where they physicallly couldn't fit it within the ROW, and where they took a previous plan (the SRT upgrade) and just slapped LRT on the front of it instead of ICTS.

 

[nfitz]

The only places where they weren't doing in-median LRT was where they physicallly couldn't fit it within the ROW, and where they took a previous plan (the SRT upgrade) and just slapped LRT on the front of it instead of ICTS.

Though the SRT is just ICTS slapped on, where fully grade-separated LRT was the original design. To be fair, if the SRT extension wasn't grade-separated, they'd have trouble handling the peak load between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy, unless they provided more service between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy than Scarborough Centure and Sheppard East.

 

[Tewder]

I'm hoping that Ford will renege on his "everything underground!" policy and allow at least portions of Eglinton (and possible Sheppard) to be built above ground.

But that's hopeful thinking, right?

Sometimes the art of negotiation is about demanding the moon so as to set the bar as high as possible, from which some comprimising will always have to be necessary. As somebody else mentioned Ford's real mandate is to get mass transit off the street. 'Everything underground' may just be yet another example of a jingoistic Ford sound bite, more than anything else. Besides, he will still have to work with Metrolinx etc to get a plan approved and underway.

 

[gweed123]

Though the SRT is just ICTS slapped on, where fully grade-separated LRT was the original design. To be fair, if the SRT extension wasn't grade-separated, they'd have trouble handling the peak load between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy, unless they provided more service between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy than Scarborough Centure and Sheppard East.

True, the initial SRT proposal was for a dedicated streetcar ROW, which was then upgraded to ICTS. I was referring to the initial plan to upgrade the current SRT to Mark II ICTS, which was adopted wholesale and just changed to LRT for the Transit City plan. Very little of the actual planning elements of the plan changed between the ICTS version and the LRT version. That was the point that I was trying to make.

And yes, I agree that a non-grade separated SLRT would not be able to handle the peak load. However, given that it's more of an upgrade than a new line, it wouldn't have made sense to eliminate already existed grade separations.

 

[gweed123]

Sometimes the art of negotiation is about demanding the moon so as to set the bar as high as possible, from which some comprimising will always have to be necessary. As somebody else mentioned Ford's real mandate is to get mass transit off the street. 'Everything underground' may just be yet another example of a jingoistic Ford sound bite, more than anything else. Besides, he will still have to work with Metrolinx etc to get a plan approved and underway.

Exactly. I still think that "everything underground" is more of a soundbyte meant to appeal to the masses who don't like streetcars, as opposed to an actual demand to Metrolinx. I still believe his mandate to Metrolinx was "I want everything grade-separated". Or rather it was probably his assistant who clarified that demand, as I don't think Rob knows what grade-separated even means.

 

[Asterix]

I have to say though, I'm pretty satisfied with the plan that is shaping up (even though it's not official).

Those must some pretty rose tinted glasses. Comparing what was literally about to be started with what might be built is a pretty startling contrast.

As of just a few months ago we were looking at provincially funded lines for:
- Sheppard East to serve a large swath of vastly underserved northern Scarborough. We no longer have this.
- Replacement for the SRT that needed replacement. We still have this.
- Crosstown Eglinton line with the key central portion underground and projected service speeds close to that of the Bloor line on the surface portions. We still have this line but are going to be spending billions more for marginal performance improvements through fully grade separating, presumably by tunneling.
- Finch West to serve a large swath of vastly underserved northern Etobicoke. We no longer have this and the proposed suggestion of express buses in mixed traffic being any kind of comparable solution is laughable given the demand on this route.

That doesn't look like a '3 out of 4' situation.

In addition to the losses listed above, we've now got what many are calling 'an idea to have a plan' for the private sector to magically produce billions to build a subway where no subway is required. The logic that since the original Sheppard line was a mistake, that things could be rectified by spending billions more to extend it instead of a much more financially feasible option is bizarre for anyone ranting about waste and gravy trains.

It's probably safe to say that anyone who truly believes the financing numbers making the case for the Sheppard subway extension is grossly naive. Either this project will never get off the ground or the Toronto taxpayer are going to be on the hook for billions. In all likelihood it will be the former. End result will be poorly served neighbourhoods explicitly targeted by Transit City will be left poorly served for decades to come. But hey, people can still take buses to the slots at Woodbine, so they don't really need improved service.

 

[smallspy]

Exactly. I still think that "everything underground" is more of a soundbyte meant to appeal to the masses who don't like streetcars, as opposed to an actual demand to Metrolinx.

With Ford, what makes you think that the two are separate?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

Those must some pretty rose tinted glasses. Comparing what was literally about to be started with what might be built is a pretty startling contrast.

As of just a few months ago we were looking at provincially funded lines for:
- Sheppard East to serve a large swath of vastly underserved northern Scarborough. We no longer have this.
- Replacement for the SRT that needed replacement. We still have this.
- Crosstown Eglinton line with the key central portion underground and projected service speeds close to that of the Bloor line on the surface portions. We still have this line but are going to be spending billions more for marginal performance improvements through fully grade separating, presumably by tunneling.
- Finch West to serve a large swath of vastly underserved northern Etobicoke. We no longer have this and the proposed suggestion of express buses in mixed traffic being any kind of comparable solution is laughable given the demand on this route.

That doesn't look like a '3 out of 4' situation.

In addition to the losses listed above, we've now got what many are calling 'an idea to have a plan' for the private sector to magically produce billions to build a subway where no subway is required. The logic that since the original Sheppard line was a mistake, that things could be rectified by spending billions more to extend it instead of a much more financially feasible option is bizarre for anyone ranting about waste and gravy trains.

It's probably safe to say that anyone who truly believes the financing numbers making the case for the Sheppard subway extension is grossly naive. Either this project will never get off the ground or the Toronto taxpayer are going to be on the hook for billions. In all likelihood it will be the former. End result will be poorly served neighbourhoods explicitly targeted by Transit City will be left poorly served for decades to come. But hey, people can still take buses to the slots at Woodbine, so they don't really need improved service.

The SELRT was just as big of a mistake as the Sheppard subway is (maybe not in terms of dollars, but both planning rationales are equally flawed). Also, Eglinton is likely to continue much further west in this round of funding than it was under the last Transit City plan.

I outlined why I think this plan is better. You're free to disagree with it. I was just stating my opinion that overall, I think this plan is a better long-term investment for the city. I'd take Eglinton west to the airport over half of the Finch West LRT any day.

 

[Tulse]

But hey, people can still take buses to the slots at Woodbine, so they don't really need improved service.

Buses?! Don't be absurd -- the only people who matter actually drive.