Transit City Plan

[Epi]

It's important to keep in mind that one of the many reasons why TC costs so much is because all the roads will be completely rebuilt. Some of these roads (i.e. Sheppard, Finch) are in pretty horrid shape and would probably have to be completely fixed up sometime soon anyway. I drive down these roads quite regularly and can tell you they are falling apart.

As well, they plan to add in some bike lanes in areas and make the sidewalks nicer too. All that costs a lot of money and while it is 'part of TC' it provide very tangible benefits to non-transit users as well.


As for the argument that LRT under Transit City will be no better than buses I find that silly. Transit City LRTs will have 4 times the capacity of a bus, with a much, much smoother ride. They will also allow all-door boarding which will vastly improve the speed spent at stops.

Because they won't have to be as close as running 4x as many buses, bunching will probably not happen except during the busiest time in rush hour many years from now when ridership catches up. Bunching vastly decreases the speed of buses, because at busy stops there's usually 1 person from each bus that has to get off anyway, and the bunching makes them wait in line to unload people. It's also much easier to get onto a low-floor LRT that comes right up to the station (so close you can wheel your wheelchair in). Buses can't do that reliably even the low floor ones especially when there's snowbanks. Buses also endlessly turn in and out of lanes and along with the general bouncyness of the bus they are really not that fun to ride in or stand in. All this adds to LRT being a vastly more reliable and better form or transit to use.

So even IF all the Transit City lines were JUST replacing buses for the sake of it, it leads to vastly better transit for riders. But it isn't. LRT under the Transit City model, because of the vastly larger vehicles, less dwell time due to no bunching and all-door loading and ROW implementation will also all vastly higher capacity than running buses would ever allow.


For those that say that 'real people don't care between LRT and bus' I beg to differ. Buses really are the worst form of public transportation. It's hard for the elderly to use because of the swaying/acceleration/deceleration/curbs/stairs, it's hard for those with strollers/wheelchairs, hard for those with any sort of physical disability to navigate it, and for anyone who actually gets carsick, a bus is 10x as bad and is something to be avoided at all costs.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

As for the argument that LRT under Transit City will be no better than buses I find that silly. Transit City LRTs will have 4 times the capacity of a bus, with a much, much smoother ride. They will also allow all-door boarding which will vastly improve the speed spent at stops.

Because they won't have to be as close as running 4x as many buses, bunching will probably not happen except during the busiest time in rush hour many years from now when ridership catches up. Bunching vastly decreases the speed of buses, because at busy stops there's usually 1 person from each bus that has to get off anyway, and the bunching makes them wait in line to unload people. It's also much easier to get onto a low-floor LRT that comes right up to the station (so close you can wheel your wheelchair in). Buses can't do that reliably even the low floor ones especially when there's snowbanks. Buses also endlessly turn in and out of lanes and along with the general bouncyness of the bus they are really not that fun to ride in or stand in. All this adds to LRT being a vastly more reliable and better form or transit to use.

So even IF all the Transit City lines were JUST replacing buses for the sake of it, it leads to vastly better transit for riders. But it isn't. LRT under the Transit City model, because of the vastly larger vehicles, less dwell time due to no bunching and all-door loading and ROW implementation will also all vastly higher capacity than running buses would ever allow.


For those that say that 'real people don't care between LRT and bus' I beg to differ. Buses really are the worst form of public transportation. It's hard for the elderly to use because of the swaying/acceleration/deceleration/curbs/stairs, it's hard for those with strollers/wheelchairs, hard for those with any sort of physical disability to navigate it, and for anyone who actually gets carsick, a bus is 10x as bad and is something to be avoided at all costs.

Bike lanes and fixing potholes and streetscaping can be done without replacing the buses.

The higher the capacity of individual vehicles, the lower the frequency the TTC will be able to get away with. Real people care about travel time above all else. Lower frequency means longer travel times and longer waits out in the snow and rain and sun. Is that comfortable and quality transit? We're just assuming bunching won't be a regular occurrence...no one knows for sure. Remember, the lines will be operated by the TTC, not by the computer modelling them for the EA.

Buses can't use all-door boarding? Buses can't be low-floor? Buses can't use partial or full ROWs? You can claim riding buses must be like riding an amusement park ride but the real truth is that it isn't. You keep using the word "better" without noting how purely subjective your rationale is. Note that all transit users will need to cross lanes of traffic to reach the LRT ROW. Is that comfortable? Why will these outdoor shelter spaces be free of ice and snow while spaces where people board/exit buses must be riddled with snowbanks?

I clearly did not say all Transit City lines were replacing buses for the sake of replacing buses. Obviously, a route like Eglinton west of Yonge needs its buses replaced. There's plenty of others. Sheppard & Morningside...not so much.

 

[kettal]

Please, find me one tangible benefit from spending a billion dollars on this project.

Two new lanes dedicated to transit, where currently there are zero? Bike lanes? New lighting for streets and sidewalks? long overdue resurfacing? pedestrian friendly enhancements?

Oh wait, you said one tangible benefit. Sorry.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Rezoning and adding trees and fixing potholes can only be done by removing buses?

 

[kettal]

^^ absolutely not. And rail overpasses can also be done without removing the bus. You asked what other benefits we are getting from this $1 billion, and I told you.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Adding a rail overpass actually affects transit, though. Fixing potholes on traffic lanes doesn't when transit vehicles won't even be using them. Adding trees doesn't, either (edit - and we're not talking about 5 trees in a parkette, we're probably talking about hundreds and hundreds of trees and [tens of?] millions of dollars of landscaping that could have been used to improve transit on Dufferin or Lawrence).

I love the hypocrisy...people say the subway should not be extended because it diverts money away from other transit projects, and then these other transit projects spend a fortune either on stuff that has no effect on transit or on transit that offers no real improvements over what was there before.

 

[Whoaccio]

That is the biggest load of crap ever. Sorry, but you can't just photoshop some buildings into a picture (and up the brightness...) and claim it as a benefit.

 

[Amphibius]

Please, find me one tangible benefit from spending a billion dollars on this project. The grade separation of the Stouffville GO line is the only one. The TTC is utterly incapable of managing long routes and streetcar lines even in their own ROW. Frequency will drop. Travel times will not be any faster than what Rocket buses can do, especially if the buses had all-door boarding and signal priority.

Why is anything at all needed on Sheppard if you think GO trains are the answer to all travel problems? A cool billion dollars worth of LRT is needed because the buses desperately need to be replaced due to comfort? Real people in this city actually ride buses...this isn't some segregated American sprawlhole where the mere mention of buses makes people cringe.

It's dolts like Amphibius that are saying the subway should not be extended because Agincourt is "not dense enough," or that one area doesn't "deserve" a subway extension relative to another.

Please don't resort to personal attacks and name-calling, when I have been nothing but civil towards you. And also don't misquote me. Agincourt is one singular pocket of moderate density along Sheppard. Finch East at least has a continuous string of mixed residential-commercial-instituitional-industrial-corporate zones right back to Morningside. These contradictory statements you're making though... tell me, why is a "billion dollar" LRT proposal a waste of funds (Sheppard East LRT from platform level at Don Mills Stn all the way to Morningside would only cost approx. $555 million including vehicles, so?) yet a 2.6 Billion dollar subway extension to Scarborough Centre not? Nothing's stopping us from implementing LRT interlines that'd directly link NYCC to SCC.

According to http://lrt.daxack.ca/blog/?p=19:

Simply put, underground lines:

HRT costs $200M to $300M per km
LRT costs about $65M to $75M per km

At grade:

HRT costs about $125M to $200M per km
LRT is in the range of $25M to $35M per km.

Retrofitting the existing to handle LRT technolgy also isn't as big a deal as you're making it out ot be. The line's relatively new to the public and underused (as evident by the low usage at non-terminii stations, not propped up by bus reroutes). The subway's only seen a 10-20% increase in passenger volume over the bus route it's partially replaced in spite of the condo developments. So we can assume that the public would still flock to the Sheppard Line were it converted over, and meanwhile real people in this city as you say would make do with the 85A til construction period's over (maybe 6 months to a year tops).

So sorry I'm a dolt for wanting to preserve some usefulness out of the Stubway ROW while also developing a true northern 416 crosstown line and getting mass transit closer to a greater number of people along Finch East, when at least Agincourt would be surrounded on all four sides by mass transit (SRT: @Markham or Neilson; SRT: @Midland or Ellesmere Stns; Stoufville GO: on-site; Finch-Sheppard Crosstown Line: @Kennedy-Finch or Don Mills Stn).

 

[Whoaccio]

Before subway:

After subway:

Wow! It's like subways can not only make everything super great, but they can change Finch's surroundings to the East River! Take that LRT!

 

[waterloowarrior]

^ some images I made last year to illustrate the power of LRT.....

here is an ordinary street like Eglinton with just a bus

here's the amazing change that would practically happen instantly if we would just put in LRT

we should never build subways again.... they just lead to the streets looking like this

Look at the east part [ie east of STC] of the Sheppard East corridor, not exactly ripe for redevelopment

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Please don't resort to personal attacks and name-calling, when I have been nothing but civil towards you. And also don't misquote me. Agincourt is one singular pocket of moderate density along Sheppard. Finch East at least has a continuous string of mixed residential-commercial-instituitional-industrial-corporate zones right back to Morningside. These contradictory statements you're making though... tell me, why is a "billion dollar" LRT proposal a waste of funds (Sheppard East LRT from platform level at Don Mills Stn all the way to Morningside would only cost approx. $555 million including vehicles, so?) yet a 2.6 Billion dollar subway extension to Scarborough Centre not? Nothing's stopping us from implementing LRT interlines that'd directly link NYCC to SCC.

Using this account or all the others?

There's absolutely nothing on Finch East except at Don Mills, Warden, and McCowan, all of which would be good choices for N/S transit routes. The rest of Finch is almost exclusively houses, along with some light industrial sites east of Middlefield that don't employ a heck of a lot of people. Finch doesn't have any residential blobs as large as Agincourt or employment blobs as large as Consumers. The bus works as is, which means a simple Rocket bus would improve service by boosting capacity and travel speeds. And, yeah, a hydro corridor route would be useful and steal the thunder from the need to remove buses from Finch East.

$555M is out of date - $950M is being earmarked, and will all but assuredly end up over $1B when all's said and done.

Ridership along Sheppard has gone up a lot more than 10-20% and will be closer to if not over 100% in a couple of years. Closing the subway for reconstruction would mean some people permanently switch to their cars or move away from the area. Sheppard's congestion means replacing the subway with buses is not a realistic option without dedicated bus lanes.

 

[kettal]

Adding a rail overpass actually affects transit, though. Fixing potholes on traffic lanes doesn't when transit vehicles won't even be using them. Adding trees doesn't, either (edit - and we're not talking about 5 trees in a parkette, we're probably talking about hundreds and hundreds of trees and [tens of?] millions of dollars of landscaping that could have been used to improve transit on Dufferin or Lawrence).

I love the hypocrisy...people say the subway should not be extended because it diverts money away from other transit projects, and then these other transit projects spend a fortune either on stuff that has no effect on transit or on transit that offers no real improvements over what was there before.

Do you really think improvements to pedestrian infrastructure and streetscapes will have no effect on transit? In the reverse scenario, if Danforth Avenue took away sidewalks and made the street into a dull arterial (like current Sheppard), would you not expect transit use to go down?

It's all included in the budget. What's wrong with getting Ottawa & Queens park to pay for street improvements which would have to be done anyways?

 

[waterloowarrior]

According to http://lrt.daxack.ca/blog/?p=19:

Simply put, underground lines:

HRT costs $200M to $300M per km
LRT costs about $65M to $75M per km

At grade:

HRT costs about $125M to $200M per km
LRT is in the range of $25M to $35M per km.

Simply put Sheppard costs $60 million a kilometre and Eglinton costs $140 million a kilometre (both rounded down..)

 

[kettal]

we should never build subways again.... they just lead to the streets looking like this

That's actually pretty accurate with what happened to Sheppard around Bayview. Sure there's lots of new sky scraper condos, but they're full of people who drive to work, traffic is worse, and there's no pedestrians.

 

[Whoaccio]

@waterloowarrior

Nice renderings, but your render of LRT-fied Eglinton doesn't include super happy looking renderpeople on bikes. We all know that the only ways to promote bike use in this city are billion dollar LRT lines. Don't even get me started on planting trees!

Come on, get with the program.

That's actually pretty accurate with what happened to Sheppard around Bayview. Sure there's lots of new sky scraper condos, but they're full of people who drive to work, traffic is worse, and there's no pedestrians.

I must of missed the guys with Uzis standing around Sheppard & Baview last time I was there.