kettal
Banned
I really don't know how attractive a major highway interchange like this can possibly be. Could you please be more specific what kind of enhancements you were hoping for?
|
|
|
Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
I really don't know how attractive a major highway interchange like this can possibly be. Could you please be more specific what kind of enhancements you were hoping for?
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,107
- Reaction score
- 5
- Location
- a strange reality, bizarro toronto
wow! it went from creating 95 hundred to 95 thousand jobs in a matter of a day!
Eug
Senior Member
It would seem this one LRT line will single-handedly get ontario out of the recession.
smuncky
Senior Member
Amphibius
Banned
If it's cheaper to build than subway technology and yeilds more overall kms of servicable track getting mass transit closer to more densely populated neighbourhoods, then yes, it is the wave of the future. Not everyone resides in SCC and not everyone would find transferring onto a bus from this point to be more convenient. Scarborough does not begin and end at SCC and I've yet to hear a convincing enough argument as to why it has to be subways or nothing in order to access this location from the northwest.
But still 19 kms for $1.9 Billion (or basically $100 million/km) yielding all that is mighty impressive. That's what I was getting at. Attempting to do the same amount of mileage here alone would cost $5.7 Billion, and uber-technical stuff like extradosed bridges and elevated guideways, forget about it. I also contrast Vancouver to Toronto because their network has fully adopted interlining. Done here, it'd be possible to serve multiple trip generators by having two routes share the main body of track before branching off at a certain point to target specific terminii.
Well in the forseeable future Don Mills and Eglinton will have two mass transit lines dissecting it, so the planners do seem to be catching on. Also Wynford Hts-Don Mills has a surface area 4x the land mass of Bloor West Village so it shouldn't be surprising that the population is more concentrated to the subway's vicinity, whereas the latter's residents' are more likely motorists.
Finch East easily satisfies all those factors more readily than Sheppard East:
a) Yes... Seneca College area (pop. 26,640), Bridletowne/L'Amoreaux area (pop. 45,865), Woodside Square area (pop. 30,160), Malvern [MTC is situated closer to Finch Ave] (pop. 44,315), Morningside Hts-Rogue (pop. 43,180). Several of these neighbourhoods are already identified as Places to Grow and tied into larger projects.
NB- Agincourt by the way has a total population of 21,565 (2006 census, down nearly 1% from the 2001 census) with nothing else worth even mentioning directly off the Sheppard East corridor. STC is closer to Ellesmere.
b) Yes... Anticipated BRT/LRT up Don Mills, Warden, McCowan, Markham Rd, Morningside. Finch links them all and connects residents quickly to Fairview, NYGH, NYCC and a more southernly transfer point to the Yonge Subway for downtown-bound riders.
c) Yes... 39 Finch East= 40,700 daily boardings; 85 Sheppard East pre-subway average= 33,600 daily boardings. Rerouting buses into Don Mills Stn skews the numbers.
Finch is also a through continuous crosstown corridor, whereas Sheppard isn't. Finch LRT would also be within closer proximity to the Toronto-York border, meaning 905 residents benefit more by having greater accessibility to a major E-W rapid transit line.
If the walk-in usage of the intermediate stations were higher I would tend to agree with you. However, most of that 45,000 can be attributed to feeder routes artificially propping up Don Mills' total. Ultimately I think it is a good thing that the condo tract has developed; and makes me optimistic that passengers there would just as readily board LRT trains in the tunnel as they would the existing 4-car T1s.
Once one gets over the silly notion that Transit City's surface operation will in any way reflect that of the go-slow legacy streetcars, they come to believe in the transformative power of LRT; in their ability to sustain fast, reliable mass transit through communities that otherwise would be stuck with mere local bus routes.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
I am absolutely a believer in the transformative power of LRT; I have been on plenty of European light rail and 'tram' systems that deliver a much, much higher quality of service than our clanging streetcars, and cover distances only marginally slower than our subway with on street running
What I'm sceptical of is the TTC and City's ability to do the things essential to providing such service, like ironclad signal priority and taking whatever number of stops they were planning and then cutting it in half. There is nothing stopping the TTC from demonstrating that ability on our existing ROW routes, but they haven't. That worries me.
What I'm sceptical of is the TTC and City's ability to do the things essential to providing such service, like ironclad signal priority and taking whatever number of stops they were planning and then cutting it in half. There is nothing stopping the TTC from demonstrating that ability on our existing ROW routes, but they haven't. That worries me.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
There's some positive signs. The stop spacings aren't too close together, there's all-door boarding with POP, the double-ended design will eliminate the need for sllllow loops. Real signal priority is the one thing we haven't heard about, and that seems due to some weird longstanding pissing match between the TTC and the Transportation department at City Hall. You'd think the mayor could sort that out with one phone call.
They should take more steps to make Spadina and (when it's finished) St Clair better examples of what they're thinking with TC, though. Hell, you could make Spadina POP (like the 501 is) tomorrow if you wanted to.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Seeing all these randomly acquired and misused facts and figures reminds me of a certain phrase about a mule with a spinning wheel, except I know where the numbers are from. The 'Malvern' population you mention contains at least 10,000 people *south* of Sheppard. The 'Seneca' area you mention includes Fairview, which, last time I checked, was on Sheppard. 'Morningside-Rouge' is also about 50% south of Sheppard. Of course, you've neglected to include the 27K in the western half of Agincourt, as well as the jobs in the Consumers area (and STC, which is where the subway extension would go).
Even after the subway has replaced the busiest stretch of Sheppard, the 85+190 combo still sees 36,500 rides a day...ridership in the corridor has gone up and continues to rise, and the 190 isn't just cannibalizing the 85's ridership base.
golodhendil
Active Member
I guess we should tell all the cities currently building HRT and MCS like New York, Hong Kong, Seoul, Tokyo, Osaka, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Taipei, Rome, Naples, etc that they are totally missing this wave of the future. (I really would not equate ICTS with TC-style LRT; I would be ecstatic if they would even consider ART or other fully grade-separated MCS for Eglinton and Sheppard)
Canada Line will have zero interlining capacity with the other lines, and whether Evergreen Line will have it is still open question.
TTC has yet to demonstrate otherwise, so your notion is as silly as the other one.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
As opposed to transfering from a subway to an LRT? As opposed to transfering from a Finch east LRT to a Finch east bus at Don Mills? As opposed to transfering from a Sheppard LRT to another LRT to get to Scarborough centre to connect to all the buses that serve that node? You know, it's not about who lives at STC, it's about STC's purpose as a logical transit hub for the eastern half of the city.
One of TC's big flaws is that it is a decentralized system of LRTs linking nothing to nowhere. How is it advantageous to have a LRT crossing at Markham and Sheppard (instead of STC) or Jane and Finch (instead of York university) or in the floodplains of Jane and Eglinton (instead of anywhere else nearby)? I bet you're going to tell me it's because of density...
Actually, you've got the neighbourhoods and their transit service backward. This probably underscores my argument that density is a next to useless indicator of transit ridership.
Well, scarberian already took you to task about your population "facts", so I won't go there. However, there is something even stupider than relying on density stats for transit ridership potential - absolute population stats.
Who cares if they artificially "prop up" Don Mills' total? Riders are riders are riders. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it doesn't matter if passengers walk in off the street or come in from far flung areas by bus? If public transit's job is to build walkable European neighbourhoods for hipsters, sure, but if it's supposed to be a municipal public service that serves citizens regardless of where they live (you know, a little thing called social equity?) then your philosophy is complete garbage.
The "transformative power of LRT"? You sound like Jack van Impe on a Sunday morning railing on about the transformative power of Christ.
Amphibius
Banned
^^ "Social equity" is precisely what I'm advocating for when I say I'd recommend building a 30-40km, partially grade-separated, Finch-Sheppard crosstown LRT corridor serving multiple nodal zones/trip generators as opposed to a mere 8.6 km $2.6 Billion dollar metro subway extension that only serves a handful of communities en route. And I don't have to be taken to task on the population census when obviously I'm aware that not every last resident of an area will use public transit. But it's a good measurement of where the people in northeastern Scarborough actually live (not to mention southern Markham commuters travelling through Scarborough), and which of the 2 corridors would best route closest to their residences, including the near 50% of Rogue CPA that does live in Morningside Hts.
This is Vancouver's long-term plan.
I also believe Eglinton should be either a grade-separated premetro or metro subway line, as it would link up more nodal areas than the other Transit City lines proposed. If Sheppard must continue eastwards as a LRT line due to the expense of HRT construction though, I don't understand why customers should be forced to endure a transfer between vehicles at Don Mills (or Consumers) when a one-seat ride is of more convenience?
Theoretically, I think routing the LRT in mixed traffic between Consumers and Agincourt GO, then following its own right-of-way down to the Scarborough Centre, still provides a faster commute than bus, although marginally slower than full grade-separation. Yonge-Scarborough Centre could take as little as one half-hour, even outperforming the Bloor-Danforth (32 minutes B-Y to Kennedy) + SRT's duration (8 mins to STC). However a Finch East LRT branch to Malvern Town Centre still sounds like a credible idea worth consideration.
Yes based on the 501 car, I would tend to agree with you. However TC LRT is alledgedly nothing like the existing infrastructure. I've attended some of the public meetings where they explained how they'd maintain transit signal priority and queue-jumping at busy intersections. Stops will be every 400m apart surface, 850m apart subsurface and allow all-door POP boarding. So travel times should assuredly be an improvement over the existing bus network along the select corridors.
This is Vancouver's long-term plan.
I also believe Eglinton should be either a grade-separated premetro or metro subway line, as it would link up more nodal areas than the other Transit City lines proposed. If Sheppard must continue eastwards as a LRT line due to the expense of HRT construction though, I don't understand why customers should be forced to endure a transfer between vehicles at Don Mills (or Consumers) when a one-seat ride is of more convenience?
Theoretically, I think routing the LRT in mixed traffic between Consumers and Agincourt GO, then following its own right-of-way down to the Scarborough Centre, still provides a faster commute than bus, although marginally slower than full grade-separation. Yonge-Scarborough Centre could take as little as one half-hour, even outperforming the Bloor-Danforth (32 minutes B-Y to Kennedy) + SRT's duration (8 mins to STC). However a Finch East LRT branch to Malvern Town Centre still sounds like a credible idea worth consideration.
Yes based on the 501 car, I would tend to agree with you. However TC LRT is alledgedly nothing like the existing infrastructure. I've attended some of the public meetings where they explained how they'd maintain transit signal priority and queue-jumping at busy intersections. Stops will be every 400m apart surface, 850m apart subsurface and allow all-door POP boarding. So travel times should assuredly be an improvement over the existing bus network along the select corridors.
Amphibius
Banned
Have you seen the maps on the Toronto.ca (Neighbourhood Profiles) website? It cuts off the community of Malvern at the 401. I doubt 10,000 people reside in such a narrow stretch (Markham Rd-Morningside), half of which comprises the industrial lands along Milner. Also I deliberately quoted the Don Village CPA also because it included Don Mills-Sheppard. It was to demonstrate how Finch East LRT can connect several trip generators on the same one-seat ride commute. In this case: Seneca - Yorklands - Fairview Mall - NYGH. You're forgetting too that LRT enables interlining such that we could have both a Sheppard East LRT and a Finch East LRT sharing the same ROW within the tunnel, and then going their separate ways beyond it.
Anyhow, maybe I'm just not grasping why you and others are so vehemently opposed to the idea of retrofitting the tunnel? Last I checked TPTB (Moscoe, Giambrone, Miller, Metrolinx and co.) have no intention of ever reviving the Sheppard Subway line. So unless its converted it may always remain at only 6 kms (or to VP if we're lucky) and entail a pointless transfer in-between LRT and metro at Don Mills Stn.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Has anyone in the LRT evangelist camp ever considered that if LRT's primary time savings are to come from placing stops "every 400m apart surface, 850m apart subsurface and allow all-door POP boarding", all of those same exact features could be replicated more or less as well for more or less no cost with buses?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Literally half the people in the areas you mentioned as being along Finch actually live along Sheppard, and then you neglected to include about 50,000 residents and jobs along Sheppard between the 404 and Kennedy. So, no, you're not obviously aware, even after being told.
It could be 8000 south of Sheppard...we won't know for sure have been added in recent residential construction until the next census. But what we do know for sure is that people live between McLevin and Sheppard and these people (including Malvern Town Centre and the high schools) are closer to Sheppard. That's another 20,000 people who won't use a Finch LRT.
Voltz
Senior Member
You could build a subsurface bus line for no cost??
Even on the surface, to replicate the capacity needed for most of the transit city lines with buses, would require there own right of way with passing lanes at stops to allow for express buses, (seems to me like building this would cost money). We would also end up with a five lane wide ROW at intersections, they would also need more buses that cost more to operate and need to be replaced sooner.