Transit City Plan

[GraphicMatt]

^^ absolutely not. And rail overpasses can also be done without removing the bus. You asked what other benefits we are getting from this $1 billion, and I told you.

Major benefit of Transit City? Getting rid of Coffee Times, apparently.

Totally worth it.

 

[waterloowarrior]

That's actually pretty accurate with what happened to Sheppard around Bayview. Sure there's lots of new sky scraper condos, but they're full of people who drive to work, traffic is worse, and there's no pedestrians.

The whole point of the images in that things like that are planning/zoning/design related, little to do with LRT vs subway (i.e. you can have mixed use, pedestrian friendly streets with subways or you can have big box malls with streetcars.... )

 

[kettal]

The whole point of the images in that things like that are planning/zoning/design related, nothing to do with LRT or subway (i.e. you can have mixed use, pedestrian friendly streets with subways or you can have big box malls with streetcars.... )

Yes, I agree with you on that. And your renderings are brilliant, I must say.

Point is, the dollars aren't just going to making transit priority lanes (which in itself is a noble cause, in my opinion) but will bring streetscape improvements bringing us to the "intermediate" photo.

Certainly, these things can be done without the LRT, but doing them at the same time with a cheque from Mr Harper makes it all the better

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Do you really think improvements to pedestrian infrastructure and streetscapes will have no effect on transit? In the reverse scenario, if Danforth Avenue took away sidewalks and made the street into a dull arterial (like current Sheppard), would you not expect transit use to go down?

It's all included in the budget. What's wrong with getting Ottawa & Queens park to pay for street improvements which would have to be done anyways?

Since when does Sheppard have no sidewalks? Where do these ridiculous "what if?" scenarios come from? One street being arguably duller than the other has little effect on transit. Ridership depends on how many people are coming and going to places along the line. More streetfront retail and the like could boost ridership, but that comes from rezoning.

"Hey, they replaced the concrete sidewalk with cobblestones! I think I'll get out of my car and take transit along Sheppard." Overheard? Not likely.

As the budget inflates, fewer and fewer dollars are being spent on actual transit improvements. Aesthetic improvements are always nice but not when they (and road widenings) come at the direct expense of, say, added vehicles on other routes. Or a Danforth extension to STC. Or LRT along Lawrence. Or a second entrance at College station. Or full service on the Stouffville GO line. At the very least, even if a subway extension to Barrie cost a billion dollars per km, that would be money spent on transit.

Why not skip the aesthetics and the road widenings and the bike lanes and build unaesthetic LRT lines in more places? Let the private sector pay for the trees since, supposedly, the corridors will be completely redeveloped, anyway. I guess it's too much to ask that transit infrastructure funding be spent on transit, particularly when said transit projects were proposed in response to previous transit proposals/projects that were apparently "too expensive."

 

[Hipster Duck]

tell me, why is a "billion dollar" LRT proposal a waste of funds (Sheppard East LRT from platform level at Don Mills Stn all the way to Morningside would only cost approx. $555 million including vehicles[?]

"We ought to start shopping in Chicago, shouldn't we folks?"

 

[kettal]

Since when does Sheppard have no sidewalks? Where do these ridiculous "what if?" scenarios come from? One street being arguably duller than the other has little effect on transit. Ridership depends on how many people are coming and going to places along the line. More streetfront retail and the like could boost ridership, but that comes from rezoning.

"Hey, they replaced the concrete sidewalk with cobblestones! I think I'll get out of my car and take transit along Sheppard." Overheard? Not likely.

As the budget inflates, fewer and fewer dollars are being spent on actual transit improvements. Aesthetic improvements are always nice but not when they (and road widenings) come at the direct expense of, say, added vehicles on other routes. Or a Danforth extension to STC. Or LRT along Lawrence. Or a second entrance at College station. Or full service on the Stouffville GO line. At the very least, even if a subway extension to Barrie cost a billion dollars per km, that would be money spent on transit.

Why not skip the aesthetics and build hideous LRT lines in more places?

Yes, I see where it is we disagree.

In my opinion, you can have the best transit system in the world, but it will be for nothing if it's unpleasant to live near it, use it, or having the most pleasant access being park & ride.

Of course zoning is important, but so is the streetscape, amenities, and design. Try compare, say Jarvis with Queen Street. Zoning is not what makes them so different, the problem is the street design itself.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, I see where it is we disagree.

In my opinion, you can have the best transit system in the world, but it will be for nothing if it's unpleasant to live near it, use it, or having the most pleasant access being park & ride.

Of course zoning is important, but so is the streetscape, amenities, and design. Try compare, say Jarvis with Queen Street. Zoning is not what makes them so different, the problem is the street design itself.

Skip the hyperbole. A few metres of grass between the road and buildings along Sheppard doesn't make it unpleasant and prevent people from using transit.

No, design is not the problem. Queen is a continuous retail street with stores and restaurants and bars that attract people from far and wide...even if Jarvis had Queen's storefronts, it may be a desolate strip depending on what's in those storefronts.

Rezoning (and the urban design controls built into the process) is what's important along Sheppard since it is the city that will decide what gets built and what it looks like. And this planning control is free and independent of transit infrastructure. The design of backyards and strip malls isn't the problem, the existence of backyards and strip malls is.

 

[Eug]

And this planning control is free and independent of transit infrastructure.

? The city actually plans transit and zoning together.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

? The city actually plans transit and zoning together.

I know. I said it's independent of transit infrastructure - you can zone and build whatever you want beside the street and it is completely independent of what, if any, transit vehicles run down the street.

 

[Epi]

Bike lanes and fixing potholes and streetscaping can be done without replacing the buses.

The point is, these are necessary improvements. The city has already committed to more bike lanes. The roads as they are currently also need major overhauls (lots of places in these suburban roads have to be dug up too for water mains), with the related expenses and disruption of traffic. Building a ROW at the same time is both efficient, and making the best of it. Since the cost has to be paid for ANYWAY, it's good that it will be done.

The higher the capacity of individual vehicles, the lower the frequency the TTC will be able to get away with. Real people care about travel time above all else. Lower frequency means longer travel times and longer waits out in the snow and rain and sun. Is that comfortable and quality transit? We're just assuming bunching won't be a regular occurrence...no one knows for sure. Remember, the lines will be operated by the TTC, not by the computer modelling them for the EA.

Bunching is CAUSED by frequencies which are too high. I don't know if you ever actually take the bus during rush hour. But anytime during rush hour the Finch bus or the Steeles bus bunches up. You get 4 buses in a row and then nothing for 10-15 minutes. This happens basically every day, and happens when frequencies go below 3 minutes.

Meanwhile during off peak, you get a regular bus every 5-7 minutes or so.

Transit City is stated to have frequencies of about 4-5 mins each. This means no bunching.

Generally people like the idea of having transit come at very regular intervals (i.e. 4-5 mins each) rather than have to wait 10-15 minutes for a bunch of buses to come at the same time. In the suburbs this is actually quite important as there are many more people who could drive, but choose to ride transit, but if there is so much bunching they may as well drive.

Buses can't use all-door boarding? Buses can't be low-floor? Buses can't use partial or full ROWs? You can claim riding buses must be like riding an amusement park ride but the real truth is that it isn't. You keep using the word "better" without noting how purely subjective your rationale is. Note that all transit users will need to cross lanes of traffic to reach the LRT ROW. Is that comfortable? Why will these outdoor shelter spaces be free of ice and snow while spaces where people board/exit buses must be riddled with snowbanks?

Buses can do all-door boarding sure. But a bunch of buses, will still have to wait in line to load/offload people as they are too far from too small stops.

Buses can be low-floor. But snowbanks make it so that buses can't stop so close. If you've actually rode a bus in the winter you'd understand. Also buses never stop so close so that you can literally roll your wheelchair onto it like you could with LRT which by virtue of being on rails stops perfectly close to the curb.

Buses are also extremely bumpy and sway quite a bit. Either you are a surfer dude and love the bumps, or you have never rode a bus.

Finally buses can use ROWs sure. But if you're going to spend the money to build ROWs, that's already most of the cost of building LRT, except buses will still have less capacity, still have bunching unless you build in a second ROW lane for buses to pass eachother (which they do in places like China where they have 10-lane roads), cost more to operate (more drivers, much more gas) and still be less pleasant to ride.


You might not have said all of TC is replacing buses for the sake of it, but you present only a binary choice. You think either buses are good enough (which they really aren't for the TC routes) or we should go all subway (when it's not warranted). In other words, you want to give 1 corridor (Eglinton) an overpriced and overbuilt infrastructure and leave everyone else out to dry.

 

[Epi]

I know. I said it's independent of transit infrastructure - you can zone and build whatever you want beside the street and it is completely independent of what, if any, transit vehicles run down the street.

Funny how you say this, yet you think that VCC can't be built without a subway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't know if you ever actually take the bus during rush hour. But anytime during rush hour the Finch bus or the Steeles bus bunches up. You get 4 buses in a row and then nothing for 10-15 minutes.

Sorry, but this is not true. There's no need to make things up and pass them off as common experiences. I've never, ever waited 15 minutes for a Finch bus in my entire life, except at 3am. When travelling in the reverse direction during rush hour, you'll often find 2-3 bus pelotons every few minutes, jockeying for position, express buses leaping in front of non-express buses, emptier buses pulling ahead of fuller ones (passing that is not possible with LRT). The kind of 4-5+ vehicle bunches followed by, literally, 20+ minutes of no service at all that are often seen on a route like Spadina or College just does not happen on Finch or Steeles. Of course, a majority of riders are not even travelling in the reverse direction, so operational disintegration over the course of a long route doesn't have much effect on them. Most of the 'bunching' seen on Finch is nothing more than an overlap of express and non-express buses going the same way.

You might not have said all of TC is replacing buses for the sake of it, but you present only a binary choice. You think either buses are good enough (which they really aren't for the TC routes) or we should go all subway (when it's not warranted). In other words, you want to give 1 corridor (Eglinton) an overpriced and overbuilt infrastructure and leave everyone else out to dry.

You know for a fact that I did not say that or think any of the rest. Buses are certainly good enough for Sheppard & Morningside, though...anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. The EA proves it. There's no place for LRT on Sheppard, which is fine because there's a dozen other corridors that would benefit from an LRT line. I have never said that Eglinton must have a subway - what I did say was that if we're spending billions of dollars on a partially tunnelled, partially stop-at-red-lights line anyway, we need to look at the subway option (particularly since Giambrone's estimate is ridiculous when the Richview corridor is available). The central section needs to be in a tunnel, so no matter what we do we need to spend a fortune on grade-separation. The higher the pricetag gets, the more reasonable it becomes that we might as well build a subway line. I've said for years that Eglinton's ridership is extremely variable and depends moreso than any other line on what other projects get built since they may or may not cannibalize Eglinton's ridership. Ditch your binary-oriented preconceptions and start looking at the nuanced positions in between and you'll save everyone from having to correct you again because you've misinterpreted things.

Steve Munro is constantly saying that transit planning isn't worth much unless all reasonable options, including LRT, are considered: this is true, but when we're trying to solve transit problems in reasonable ways it sometimes means that LRT is a bad option. Sheppard East is one example.

Funny how you say this, yet you think that VCC can't be built without a subway.

No, I don't think that and have never said that. I'm not sure who you're confusing me with, but start a flamewar with someone else. VCC is more likely to be a success with a subway extension, but it can certainly be built without one. Transit ridership would also be higher at VCC with a subway extension. That's just the way it is.

edit - oh, and, no, I've never been on a bus before...I tried once but it stopped so far from the curb I couldn't make the jump, and I'm glad for that because the bus shock so violently almost a dozen people were thrown from open windows onto the street.

 

[Rocky]

just curious as to how this entire development will effect the strech from pharmacy to donmills on sheppard or lets say from consumers to donmills. Understanding that the "LRT" will get underground from consumers road, and all the directly effected areas might get a facelift, will this involve any thing for the strech from consumers to donmills road even though the LRT travels from underground for that strech.

Its really a very busy strech and if the any other roads linking to this will get streched, i am sure traffic will get worst from consumers to fairview mall. Generally speaking would this be good for the new condos being built typically in that vicinity ? More so would that area ever get a face lift !?

 

[Eug]

Ads lauding province draw ire

Taxpayer-funded advertisements on TTC vehicles and subway platforms praising Premier Dalton McGuinty and the province for allocating money to the Transit City plan are raising the ire of commuters and taxpayer groups.

More than 4,900 ads – which cost $25,000 to print, drawn from the TTC's advertising budget – began to appear in early May and are plastered inside buses, subways and streetcars, on subway platforms and escalator walls. The ads feature a red banner with the words "Thank you Ontario."

Beneath the banner, the ad reads: "We're breaking ground for Transit City thanks to the recent investment from Premier Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Government's MoveOntario 2020 initiative. Construction starts this year."

 

[luxome]

Source: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/05/16/279088.aspx

Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister, and Dalton McGuinty, the Ontario Premier, pledged nearly a billion dollars for a brand new light rail line in Scarborough yesterday, but their gala announcement at a streetcar maintenance shop was a telling statement about the politics of securing funding for public transit Toronto.

The smiling Prime Minister and Premier stepped off clanging Toronto Transit Commission streetcar almost an hour behind schedule and without Mayor David Miller, who was relegated to the audience.

And Mr. McGuinty couldn’t resist ribbing the Toronto’s Mayor for requesting funding for a fleet of streetcars to replace the aging red rockets on top of investments in new transit lines – like Sheppard East, for which $950 million was pledged yesterday.

“You working for Miller?” the chuckling Premier wisecracked when a reporter asked about a looming deadline to place a $1.2-billion order for the next generation of Toronto streetcars. “We just got another announcement out the door for God sakes and you’re after the next one.”

Mr. McGuinty opened his remarks with a playful reminder that Ontario recently committed $9 billion to fully fund the new Finch and Eglinton Avenue light rail lines, as well as an overhaul of the Scarborough RT system.

“Between you and me, at the time of that announcement I thought to myself ‘Surely, this is going to satisfy Miller.’ But that, my friends, was not to be the case,” the Premier quipped. “Our Mayor is nothing if not dogged and determined when it comes to improving transit for Torontonians. And sadly for me, he continues to make a very compelling case.”

MORE: Peter Kuitenbrouwer’s series on Transit City.

The Prime Minister, meanwhile, touted the manufacturing jobs that will be created at Bombardier from the 63 trams included in the price tag of the Sheppard line.

But unless the federal and provincial governments step up with $1.2 billion in economic stimulus money so the TTC can order 204 replacement streetcars from Bombardier by June 27, it may not get any vehicles to run on the new lines by the time they are completed.

The way the contract with the Canadian manufacturer is structured, the TTC can only exercise an option to purchase up to 400 streetcars for new routes if it orders the replacement fleet first.

Neither Mr. Harper nor Mr. McGuinty would make any promises yesterday.

“We’d love to be able to find a way to do this,” the Premier said. “I can’t say yes and I can’t say no, let me just tell you that I see it in a positive light.”

Mr. Miller, for his part, showed nothing but gratitude.

“I think it’s fantastic news for Toronto. We should have been doing this 20 years ago,” he said. “We should certainly say thank you and I am. Thank you Prime Minister Harper. Thank you Premier McGuinty.”

Work on the Sheppard LRT – which will run from Don Mills subway station to Meadowvale road – will begin this summer, creating 95,000 jobs.

The federal government is kicking in a third of the $950-million price tag from its slow-to-flow Building Canada infrastructure fund, while the province will pick up the rest.

The Mayor said he remains “optimistic” the federal and provincial governments will come through with stimulus money for the replacement vehicles.

“I don’t think people should let that issue obscure the importance of today’s announcement,” Mr. Miller said. “Yes, we’re still working on the funding for the 204 option cars, but both the Premier and the Prime Minister left the door open on that. That’s all I needed to hear today.”

Money for 263 trams to operate on the Sheppard, Finch and Eglinton Transit City lines is included in their funding, but unless they are ordered by the end of the year they may not arrive on time.

TTC general manager Gary Webster said yesterday that if the order for replacement streetcars doesn’t go through, the entire procurement process for the new light rail vehicles would have to begin anew, potentially delaying delivery.

“You’d have to completely start over with a new procurement process to buy streetcars for Transit City,” Mr. Webster said. “The governments know that… I was encouraged by what they had to say.”

Ontario New Democratic Party leader Andrea Horvath urged the province to stop politicizing the streetcar contract, which has the potential to secure jobs at Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant, as well as in the beleaguered auto parts sector.

“They’re playing with people’s lives, they’re playing with people’s futures,” she said. “They’re causing a great deal of consternation and upset for families not only in Thunder Bay, but for transit supporters here in Toronto and the.”

Gerrard Kennedy, a federal Liberal critic, accused the Prime Minister of getting a “free ride” on the tailwinds of Ontario’s significant investments in Toronto transit.

“They’re only paying 10% of the cost of new transit in Toronto. That’s all it’s coming too,” Mr. Kennedy said. “If people think mistakenly that this is Toronto getting its share of stimulus funds, it’s just dead wrong. They haven’t yet got a nickel of from the new money that was voted by parliament.”

Does anyone have the finalized map that shows the route to Meadowvale?