Toronto Time and Space Condos | 101.8m | 29s | Pemberton | Wallman Architects

innsertnamehere said:
yes but 154 got cut down the the area precedent before approval.. Its no taller than the Globe and Mail building. This may receive approval on a scaled down version, but on this scale and height it will not. They are asking for 10 floors over what 154 Front got.
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Trouble is, even drastically cut down to 20 or even 15 stories, this is still a terrible proposal.
 
adHominem said:
Trouble is, even drastically cut down to 20 or even 15 stories, this is still a terrible proposal.
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Agreed, the problem with it is that it basically takes up a whole block with a podium at the height of the buildings opposite it on Lower Sherbourne, Princess and The Esplanade and immediately opposite it on Front. THEN several towers are added on top of this like decorations on a wedding cake and a huge garage and loading dock area entrance is created on Princess. It's a ghastly proposal that cannot be made better by simply lopping off some floors. Though I did not (and do not) like the 154 Front plans for that site it is actually NOT a bad building and that is a tiny site so height is understandable, if not really appropriate in this area. Here they have lots of room to create something "iconic' and fail dismally. It's very large block and it COULD be wonderful.
 
oh I completely agree, but I was simply stating that because of its insane FAR ratio and height it would likely never stand a chance at the OMB. Pemberton is going to lose some very big money on this property, they way, way overpaid.
 
I'd like to see it happen

I just bought a place on Esplanade and found this thread -- can someone please explain to me why people are opposed to this??

I found the full-colour recent renderings and to me it looks amazing! The major drawback of the area right now is that there is not much retail (unless you count Coffee Time - ugh). This will add thousands of middle class residents with more spending power - surely that is a good thing in term of helping support retail and other activities. The podium blends nicely with the adjacent buildings, so it won't "look" or feel super tall, even though it has the advantage of bringing a lot more density into the neighbourhood. Also, as someone who has been to the former Soviet Union, this is nothing, nothing like Soviet architecture. Just do a google image search for "Soviet apartment buildings" and immediately put the comparison to rest.

At a more basic level: how is this worse than a parking lot / car dealership?

And one final point / question. People seem to assume that we have an infinite amount of time to push back and ask the developers to change the proposal. Isn't there also another, more pessimistic possibility -- namely that a perfect storm of macro/trend factors mean that there is really a limited window of opportunity to get projects like this done? Consider: (1) tens of thousands of new condos slated to flood the market it 2014/2015; (2) interest rates near record lows for a record long period of time; (3) many expert reports (Deutsche Bank, OECD, The Economist...) warning of a massive real estate bubble in Canada. In my humble opinion, there is a reasonable chance that sometime soon, it will be too late to get major projects done - and as a result, blocks like this will simply stay as they were, i.e., empty or filled with parked cars.

Even though I'm a newbie to this forum I'd like to offer a voice of dissent on this -- I say build it!
 
IAamTime said:
I just bought a place on Esplanade and found this thread -- can someone please explain to me why people are opposed to this??

I found the full-colour recent renderings and to me it looks amazing! The major drawback of the area right now is that there is not much retail (unless you count Coffee Time - ugh). This will add thousands of middle class residents with more spending power - surely that is a good thing in term of helping support retail and other activities. The podium blends nicely with the adjacent buildings, so it won't "look" or feel super tall, even though it has the advantage of bringing a lot more density into the neighbourhood. Also, as someone who has been to the former Soviet Union, this is nothing, nothing like Soviet architecture. Just do a google image search for "Soviet apartment buildings" and immediately put the comparison to rest.

At a more basic level: how is this worse than a parking lot / car dealership?

And one final point / question. People seem to assume that we have an infinite amount of time to push back and ask the developers to change the proposal. Isn't there also another, more pessimistic possibility -- namely that a perfect storm of macro/trend factors mean that there is really a limited window of opportunity to get projects like this done? Consider: (1) tens of thousands of new condos slated to flood the market it 2014/2015; (2) interest rates near record lows for a record long period of time; (3) many expert reports (Deutsche Bank, OECD, The Economist...) warning of a massive real estate bubble in Canada. In my humble opinion, there is a reasonable chance that sometime soon, it will be too late to get major projects done - and as a result, blocks like this will simply stay as they were, i.e., empty or filled with parked cars.

Even though I'm a newbie to this forum I'd like to offer a voice of dissent on this -- I say build it!
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Welcome to UT, and congrats on buying in a wonderful neighbourhood! I bought in St. Lawrence just over a year ago and I absolutely love it here.

I don't think anyone wants to see this block remain a parking lot wasteland, however there's a reason that The Esplanade is a world renowned success story on how to do mixed income housing right, and one of, if not the most important reason it's been such a success is building heights were strictly limited.

It's important to keep the right ratio, and this is far too high density for the area and will not fit within the guidelines that makes this neighbourhood thrive. The problem here is the developer paid WAY too much for the lot ($75Million I believe) and now has unrealistic hopes for density to recover its investment. While I agree with your sentiment that I'd rather see something than nothing, I would rather see something that adds to the neighbourhood that I love, than something that will add density and little else.

The ideal way to construct this block in my opinion, would be 2 or more separate buildings surrounding an inner courtyard. One of the things I like about the neighbourhood is being able to walk the alleys and courtyards. I'd like to see a walkable alley that aligns with the one behind Bolet's Burrito and Nicholson Ln. I don't like that their only proposals make one massive building that takes up the whole city block. Break it up, and make it fit within the fabric of the neighbourhood. Also, I don't like that there's massive multi-level retail on Front St, and just town homes on The Esplanade. I'd like to see some smaller retail units on The Esplanade. I realize this will probably never happen, but that's my fantasy for this block.
 
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Of course nobody wants to see a parking lot on the site BUT it is a huge site that covers a complete City block and the current plans GROSSLY exceed any planning norms in the area. The 'podium" is about the height of the tallest buildings in the neighbourhood, the towers are MUCH higher. Take a walk along The Esplanade and see how the proposed building will loom over the neighbourhood - it is a VERY poor proposal for that site. You presumably bought a Unit in St Lawrence because of its location and 'ambiance' - this building will change the ambience and the look of that part of the neighbourhood, and not for the better.

You seem to be saying that the current real-estate bubble will burst and when it does we will be left with an empty site for a few years. Your remedy to this is to build something that will probably be there for a century. I personally doubt that the bubble exists (or will burst) but even if it does and we see no new buildings for a few years I would far rather see an empty site for 4-5 years than a monstrosity "for ever". I suggest you read the Design Review Panel's very unfavourable review of the project (their February 2014 meeting) and the City Planner's initial report (Linked to from: http://www.slna.ca/slna-current-projects.html)
 
I also want to see retail along The Esplanade, to add to what is already there. The retail on The Esplanade is too choppy right now. It needs to be more consistent to create the right synergy. Even Sherbourne could use retail, as there is retail along the west side of the street, right up to Front. If this area fills in all the undeveloped gaps, it will need the new retail and services. The downtown east side population is rising quite quickly. The more retail, the better.
 
Torontovibe said:
I also want to see retail along The Esplanade, to add to what is already there. The retail on The Esplanade is too choppy right now. It needs to be more consistent to create the right synergy. Even Sherbourne could use retail, as there is retail along the west side of the street, right up to Front. If this area fills in all the undeveloped gaps, it will need the new retail and services. The downtown east side population is rising quite quickly. The more retail, the better.
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The current plan has retail on Front and at the north end of the Lower Sherbourne side of the site and town houses on The Esplanade and the southern ends of Princess and Lower Sherbourne. (The top end of Princess is primarily access to the garage and loading docks.) I too would like to see good retail on this site and this will depend on providing suitable sized Units. As far as I can tell the only big unit in the proposal is a two-floor one on Front that might be OK for a grocery store - if the loading dock can handle the demand. The problem with the current retail on The Esplanade and Lower Sherbourne is that it is in very small Units so tends to be devoted to things like dry cleaners and fast food places.
 
Yes, they're closing at the end of the month. There's signs on the front doors. Acura is also moving to their new location imminently. I wonder if these building will be quickly demolished like the one on the southwest corner despite the development being nowhere near approval.
 
Edward Skira said:
Is Sobey's closing? Big clearance sale happening now like they are blowing everything out. Anything to do with the development or did No Frills win?
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Yes, they are definitely closing, I think the signs on the window said their last day is Jun 28 or 29. Not much notice.

I'm also curious as to whether this is because of development or economics. Either way, it's a big loss for the immediate area, we tend to split our shopping between the No Frills, Sobey's and the SLM. Now we're going to have to start going back to that awful Market Square Metro, at least every now and then... :(
 
CityPainter said:
Yes, they are definitely closing, I think the signs on the window said their last day is Jun 28 or 29. Not much notice.

I'm also curious as to whether this is because of development or economics. Either way, it's a big loss for the immediate area, we tend to split our shopping between the No Frills, Sobey's and the SLM. Now we're going to have to start going back to that awful Market Square Metro, at least every now and then... :(
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There's always Rabba. ;P
 
slicecom said:
There's always Rabba. ;P
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Haha I only go to Rabba once every 6 weeks and buy a box or two of one particular brand of tea. Nothing else. I'm probably known as the "tea guy."

My fear is also that they will tear down the Sobey's and Acura, put in a monstrous parking lot, and it will stay like that for years and years. Just like what's happened on the northwest corner of Front and Sherbourne, in the former Greyhound Depot. So we lose what's there now (I quite like the Sobey's warehouse) but we gain nothing, at least for a long time.
 
CityPainter said:
Haha I only go to Rabba once every 6 weeks and buy a box or two of one particular brand of tea. Nothing else. I'm probably known as the "tea guy."

My fear is also that they will tear down the Sobey's and Acura, put in a monstrous parking lot, and it will stay like that for years and years. Just like what's happened on the northwest corner of Front and Sherbourne, in the former Greyhound Depot. So we lose what's there now (I quite like the Sobey's warehouse) but we gain nothing, at least for a long time.
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I share your fear, the only things keeping me optimistic that it won't happen are the lot on the southwest corner was ordered to be fenced off and closed, and I really don't think there's much demand in the area for more parking. There's multiple huge lost within a block of the site.

I'm surprised at how sad I am to lose Sobeys even though I didn't shop there all that much, and we all knew it was going to happen.
 
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