Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[EastYorkTTCFan]

This train goes to Scarborough, vs. this train goes to Downtown is too complicated for the average TTC rider? How do we manage the streetcar network moving anyone?

Maybe not to you but what about someone who isn't from Toronto or doesn't understand the subway as much as we do. Also as I said in another comment a lot of transit agencies that did interlining with lines are changing them so that they don't do it in service because of delays caused to both lines.

But the whole point of this is using excess track capacity to make some people's lives easier to reduce transfers? Not to introduce any new ones . .

It isn't excess track though at the same time trains are heading south from Willson yard they are also heading north too in the morning. The morning rush hour is the only time of day that they schedule turn backs for trains and its to have space on the line for trains that are incoming from the yard and from Vaughan.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

It isn't excess track though at the same time trains are heading south from Willson yard they are also heading north too in the morning. The morning rush hour is the only time of day that they schedule turn backs for trains and its to have space on the line for trains that are incoming from the yard and from Vaughan.

There is excess passenger capacity.

In terms of that train feed issue, you're going to gain back some capacity by adding a second connection to Wilson, and quite frankly, no one is going to cry excessively if there is a period at start of service without interlining so long as it can begin by the time true peak hour commuters start showing up on the interlined portion.

Frankly 'citation needed' on the claim that there is any widespread abandonment of interlining. Yes, it is absolutely operationally easier not to interline, and there are cases it's been removed for capacity or reliability reasons, but over-complexity on the passenger side? The likes of Copenhagen, Vanouver and Montreal all disprove any notion that interlining is entirely a feature of previous generation systems. You're right that the largest challenge on YUS is that we're dealing with a service attached to something demanding the capacity we do on Yonge, but that is an issue of ensuring trains can enter and exit service in the volume needed. There is no real passenger capacity issue anywhere on the Spadina side, let alone north of Sheppard.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Because it's too complex for the average TTC Rider to understand.

"TTC Riders are stupid" is what you're saying? People aren't that dumb.

How do we manage at Union Station? Both directions are "north," what percentage of people are confused?

It's also not needed as much as people seem to think it is.

It would increase the reach of the Sheppard trains, which currently serve a tiny geographic area, requiring a forced transfer.

I'm not going to argue about this anymore as you clearly seem to be set that it's an amazing idea and it should be done very easily and nobody is going to have any problems or complaints about it.

Thank you for that statement, it was absolutely not needed.

We're having a debate about this on a public forum. If you don't want to debate it, fine, just stop replying!

You obviously have no idea how the subway actually runs in the morning the short turns are done because ridership is low heading north to Sheppard west and Vaughan so they turn trains back so that they can get more trains out on the line both north and south from Willson yard.

OK. If I follow what you're saying, they turn trains at Wilson, because ridership is low. They also do this, so they have capacity to get trains out of Wilson Yard going northbounds.

The trains short turning are ones that started at Finch or Davisville yard. Every night they store four trains at all of the end stations which get turned back before they get to the end of the line to balance out the trains coming out of the yards and too keep the tracks leading out of the yards clear as much as they can

Finch and Davisville trains are short-turned to keep Wilson trains coming out, OK.

If a third access was built onto Sheppard, they could essentially short-cut southbound trains towards the Yonge Branch.

Adding an additional train from another line is just going to get in the way of the regular morning operations of the yard and dispatching trains in either direction in an effective and efficient manner.

If I interpreted what you said correctly, you mean this?

What you're saying with this interlining will happen is this?

And what I'm proposing is this:

When I say "new track" I mean new access along with new track from eastbound Sheppard to Finch, maybe.

It's of low demand because they are dispatching trains both north and south from Wilson yard.

Low demand northwards ... dispatch Sheppard trains northwards then?

I honestly don't see how your fantasy interlining is actually going to work, what yard do they come out off,

Wilson.

As of now the trains used on line 4 are kept in both the tail tracks and platforms at Don Mills and Sheppard station and they only go to Davisville yard when they need to have maintainince work to be done on them. Davisville yard doesn't hold a lot of trains and most of them are either north to Finch or south to Bloor. The TTC did a video one time that showed how many trains go through Bloor during the morning rush hour some of them are even brought in empty just from Davisville yard because of how busy it is.

New connection to Wilson, obviously.

You're arguing that extra trains will have to be moved to Sheppard West around the long way, is what I'm seeing. Again, a new connection to the Sheppard tracks would be enough, and could provide extra capacity and less deadheading.

Maybe not to you but what about someone who isn't from Toronto or doesn't understand the subway as much as we do.

All you need on the trains is "trains to Downtown" and "trains to Scarborough/Don Mills." If people can't understand that, I doubt if they could understand our current system.

Also as I said in another comment a lot of transit agencies that did interlining with lines are changing them so that they don't do it in service because of delays caused to both lines.

But you agree that this section is low-usage, as well as having lots of room for extra trains? It's entire possible (and probably would happen in case of such a scenario) for deadheading solutions at Sheppard West for Line 4. We know Line 1 has them.

It isn't excess track though at the same time trains are heading south from Willson yard they are also heading north too in the morning. The morning rush hour is the only time of day that they schedule turn backs for trains and its to have space on the line for trains that are incoming from the yard and from Vaughan.

See the third image above.

I can understand a need to extend the subway west and possibly east and having a connection but I don't really see interlining working as you would still have an obnoxious one station transfer for someone.

No new ones, and old ones eliminated. After all, you admit that you're still having trains turn back at Sheppard West, so people on those trains are transferring anyways.

Also a lot of cities that did stuff like that with lines made cuts to them because it would often cause delays in service

It's a short section. Low demand, this would increase demand as well as use unused tracks. Those interlining services are often quite packed, this won't be.

Not everyone pays attention to stuff like that or understands it completely.

Who in this city can't tell between "to Scarborough" and "to Downtown?" It's not New York, it's not going to create confusion for transit users everywhere.

I don't really see how it would improve it all

By creating a new cross-town route that serves suburb-to-suburb demand? By eliminating a transfer?

Run for city council and try to get on the TTC board so that you can present your ideas to them that way if you think it's so great.

Unlike what you might think, proponents often don't make it their life-goal, but support something enough to defend it.

All line 4 trains would continue to Vaughan well only a few line 1 trains would go all the way. The reason for this is because there are a large amount of people who come from Vaughn to work in Scarborough or the other way around and because "not enough people" use line 1 north of Sheppard west it's ok for them to have to transfer but because another group has to have a "one seat ride" to their destination it's inconvenient for them to transfer.

We'd have every second Line 1 train turn back at Wilson, and then on the TYSSE section trains alternate to Downtown and Sheppard.

I personally don't really get how a one seat ride works or can work unless you drive yourself.

The goal is to eliminate a forced transfer, using unused capacity.

I still don't see it being able to work the way people here seem to think it will. I honestly don't think that interlining works well for passengers as there will always be a "forced inconvenient transfer" for someone. Interlining only makes sense for equipment movements.

This plan would not create new transfers (you say it yourself that trains would still be deadheading at Wilson). But it would eliminate a Vaughan/NW Toronto - North York/Scarborough transfe.r

Who's getting a "forced inconvenient transfer?"

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

There is excess passenger capacity.

No idea why you seem to think that there is space for extra passenger capacity and why you seem to think that a train from Sheppard is going to fit in with trains going out of the yard in the morning. Also I don't know how you could maintain headways when you have trains going out of service and people having to change platforms at the same level it doesn't work well. To do it properly they would have to build a second station so as to not impede service on both lines.

The likes of Copenhagen, Vanouver and Montreal all disprove any assertion that interlining is entirely a feature of previous generation systems.

They built the lines with it in mind just like how in London they have some lines that share parts of the track. Plus you are talking about making an easy West line turn onto a north South line that is going to either have service cut short or be interfered with on an unnecessary level

 

[Bureaucromancer]

[

Couple minor adjustments for accuracy on this would be that the current short turned trains do so well south of Sheppard, so there is none of the implied interference with trains existing Wilson, and that there is not a direct northbound exit from Wilson existing now. Northbound dispatching is done through a tail track at the south end. Among other things that should mean that the capacity improvement for northbound departures would be more dramatic than the diagram suggests.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

"TTC Riders are stupid" is what you're saying? People aren't that dumb.

How do we manage at Union Station? Both directions are "north," what percentage of people are confused?

It would increase the reach of the Sheppard trains, which currently serve a tiny geographic area, requiring a forced transfer.

Thank you for that statement, it was absolutely not needed.

We're having a debate about this on a public forum. If you don't want to debate it, fine, just stop replying!

OK. If I follow what you're saying, they turn trains at Wilson, because ridership is low. They also do this, so they have capacity to get trains out of Wilson Yard going northbounds.

Finch and Davisville trains are short-turned to keep Wilson trains coming out, OK.

If a third access was built onto Sheppard, they could essentially short-cut southbound trains towards the Yonge Branch.

If I interpreted what you said correctly, you mean this?
View attachment 345390

What you're saying with this interlining will happen is this?
View attachment 345392
And what I'm proposing is this:
View attachment 345393
When I say "new track" I mean new access along with new track from eastbound Sheppard to Finch, maybe.


Low demand northwards ... dispatch Sheppard trains northwards then?

Wilson.

New connection to Wilson, obviously.

You're arguing that extra trains will have to be moved to Sheppard West around the long way, is what I'm seeing. Again, a new connection to the Sheppard tracks would be enough, and could provide extra capacity and less deadheading.

All you need on the trains is "trains to Downtown" and "trains to Scarborough/Don Mills." If people can't understand that, I doubt if they could understand our current system.

But you agree that this section is low-usage, as well as having lots of room for extra trains? It's entire possible (and probably would happen in case of such a scenario) for deadheading solutions at Sheppard West for Line 4. We know Line 1 has them.

See the third image above.

No new ones, and old ones eliminated. After all, you admit that you're still having trains turn back at Sheppard West, so people on those trains are transferring anyways.

It's a short section. Low demand, this would increase demand as well as use unused tracks. Those interlining services are often quite packed, this won't be.

Who in this city can't tell between "to Scarborough" and "to Downtown?" It's not New York, it's not going to create confusion for transit users everywhere.

By creating a new cross-town route that serves suburb-to-suburb demand? By eliminating a transfer?

Unlike what you might think, proponents often don't make it their life-goal, but support something enough to defend it.

We'd have every second Line 1 train turn back at Wilson, and then on the TYSSE section trains alternate to Downtown and Sheppard.

The goal is to eliminate a forced transfer, using unused capacity.

This plan would not create new transfers (you say it yourself that trains would still be deadheading at Wilson). But it would eliminate a Vaughan/NW Toronto - North York/Scarborough transfe.r

Who's getting a "forced inconvenient transfer?"

Everything you have posted belongs in fantasy therd which does exist by the way put it there instead. (Fixed spelling mistakes with words put together)

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC Riders are stupid" is what you're saying? People aren't that dumb.

How do we manage at Union Station? Both directions are "north," what percentage of people are confused?

Sometimes they are I have been asked numuros times by people which way a train goes from a station. To someone who isn't used to the subway yes Union station can be confusing if you don't know which side of the line you are going to, if someone asks me of it goes North I ask them what station they need to get to as that is more important than knowing that they want to go north.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

No idea why you seem to think that there is space for extra passenger capacity and why you seem to think that a train from Sheppard is going to fit in with trains going out of the yard in the morning. Also I don't know how you could maintain headways when you have trains going out of service and people having to change platforms at the same level it doesn't work well. To do it properly they would have to build a second station so as to not impede service on both lines.

This leaves me thinking your idea of what's being talked about is wildly off...

To be clear, today the layout is roughly:

While an interline capable layout would be along the lines of:

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

This leaves me thinking your idea of what's being talked about is wildly off...

To be clear, today the layout is roughly:

View attachment 345406

While an interline capable layout would be along the lines of:
View attachment 345407

Prue fantasy post it in the fantasy there. This is an idea that you have that has no chance of being a reality and no reason to actually be.

You are creating complexity for the sake of complexity to solve a problem that doesn't exist and no one actually cares if it does.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Everything you have posted belongs in fantasy therd which does exist by the way put it there instead. (Fixed spelling mistakes with words put together)

Fixed spelling mistakes, while making more. LOL

How does this belong in the fantasy thread? It's simply adding some track connections.

This is the problem with Toronto. Every idea that doesn't exist right now is "fantasy."

(My diagram was simply an interpretation of what train movements I took from your arguments, it's not a complicated diagram nor was it meant to be a complete diagram of the tracks)

 

[robmausser]

View attachment 345390

The biggest issue I see by far is the black hole that is consuming all the subway trains at Wilson Yard. I mean once those babies pass its event horizon its game over.

I say we find a way to get rid of this black hole (nuke it?) and then we will solve 99% of the problems.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Fixed spelling mistakes, while making more. LOL

How does this belong in the fantasy thread? It's simply adding some track connections.

This is the problem with Toronto. Every idea that doesn't exist right now is "fantasy."

(My diagram was simply an interpretation of what train movements I took from your arguments, it's not a complicated diagram nor was it meant to be a complete diagram of the tracks)

Your additional track does nothing. Trains head north still in the morning from Williston yard and from further south. The way you seem to be thinking is that every train heading northbound during the morning rush hour gets short turned which it doesn't.

I keep saying that the part about extending the Sheppard line to Vaughan belongs in a fantasy thread because you seem to have no grasp on how the subway system operates during the morning rush hour and your plan will do nothing at all. However if you really think it should be done then make a presentation to the TTC, the city of Toronto and Metrolinx as they are the only ones who can actually do anything about this idea you have if it's determined by the to be feasible and necessary.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't understand interlining in situations other than a bunch of branch lines with lots of extra headway in their timetables merging together to utilize a central corridor more effectively. Interlining to go to York U would suggest that Line 4 and Line 1 south of Sheppard West is the part of line with a lot of extra headway... but downtown is the busiest part of Line 1, not York U, so extending the frequent Line 1 service to York U is the most efficient way to add capacity to York U. Interlining to go to York U does not add a net benefit because it somehow suggests that someone getting on a subway downtown to go to York U waiting for a few trains to pass before boarding is more convenient than someone on Line 4 walking downstairs at Downsview to transfer to a frequent service line... but waiting longer in a crowded station is not more convenient. When low ridership branches come together into a central corridor there is nobody waiting longer... the frequency of the branches was tuned to their ridership and the central corridor gets more service than it would have so everybody wins. However, this branching only works to the point that each branch is getting the service level they need. At the point the merging of branches is limiting a branch so another branch can fit into the central corridor schedule, it is better to have transfers so each line can meet their capacity needs independently.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Your additional track does nothing. Trains head north still in the morning from Williston yard and from further south. The way you seem to be thinking is that every train heading northbound during the morning rush hour gets short turned which it doesn't.

I keep saying that the part about extending the Sheppard line to Vaughan belongs in a fantasy thread because you seem to have no grasp on how the subway system operates during the morning rush hour and your plan will do nothing at all. However if you really think it should be done then make a presentation to the TTC, the city of Toronto and Metrolinx as they are the only ones who can actually do anything about this idea you have if it's determined by the to be feasible and necessary.

I really can't be bothered to respond, as you can only say "this is fantasy" and "you don't understand how this works" without actually saying anything I can respond to.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I really can't be bothered to respond, as you can only say "this is fantasy" and "you don't understand how this works" without actually saying anything I can respond to.

Your fixed on the track section not being used and keep talking about trains turning back as if it happens all day long. I honestly don't know why you seem to think that happens outside of rush hour.