Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[superelevation]

I don't understand interlining in situations other than a bunch of branch lines with lots of extra headway in their timetables merging together to utilize a central corridor more effectively. Interlining to go to York U would suggest that Line 4 and Line 1 south of Sheppard West is the part of line with a lot of extra headway... but downtown is the busiest part of Line 1, not York U, so extending the frequent Line 1 service to York U is the most efficient way to add capacity to York U. Interlining to go to York U does not add a net benefit because it somehow suggests that someone getting on a subway downtown to go to York U waiting for a few trains to pass before boarding is more convenient than someone on Line 4 walking downstairs at Downsview to transfer to a frequent service line... but waiting longer in a crowded station is not more convenient. When low ridership branches come together into a central corridor there is nobody waiting longer... the frequency of the branches was tuned to their ridership and the central corridor gets more service than it would have so everybody wins. However, this branching only works to the point that each branch is getting the service level they need. At the point the merging of branches is limiting a branch so another branch can fit into the central corridor schedule, it is better to have transfers so each line can meet their capacity needs independently.

The difference is there is a big difference in demand from Yonge to Spadina and so running the same headway doesn’t make sense, theres even less demand on most of the TYSSE than on most of Spadina.

This would utilize that surplus capacity (which will be there for decades at this rate) to improve connectivity and reduce transfers, it makes sense.

Remember Line 1 is really 2 distinct lines

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

This would utilize that surplus capacity (which will be there for decades at this rate) to improve connectivity and reduce transfers, it makes sense.

What surplus capacity. I honestly don't get why you seem to think there is. The only time trains are turned back regularly outside of a service disruption is doing the morning rush hour when they are putting out trains both north and south from Willson yard.

 

[EnviroTO]

This would utilize that surplus capacity (which will be there for decades at this rate) to improve connectivity and reduce transfers, it makes sense.

Are more people from Sheppard going to York U than from points south? In order for there to be capacity north of Wilson there needs to be trains turning back early. If there are trains turning back early then (a) there is less demand north of Wilson (even with Sheppard transfers) or they wouldn't be turning around in the first place and (b) there are people from points south being inconvenienced by the fact trains are turning around before they get to where they want to go. For interlining to provide a net benefit the number of people inconvenienced by trains that don't reach their destination would need to be lower than people who benefit from trains continuing to York U. If the Line 4 passengers transfer to Line 1 in sufficient quantity, then the frequency of trains on Line 1 from all the places it serve benefit from more trains going to York U without turning around early.

To prove a net benefit by an interlining arrangement there would need to be an understanding of max line capacity, the trips Line 1 points south of Sheppard West to points north, and the trips from Line 4 to Line 1 points north and south. With those numbers or assumptions you can calculate the net benefit or negative impact related with the change.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They should move the east subway up at this point. People will complain about the gap between Don Mills and Sheppard/McCowan. Both sections should be done soon.

 

[DirectionNorth]

They should move the east subway up at this point. People will complain about the gap between Don Mills and Sheppard/McCowan. Both sections should be done soon.

I think that the next bunch of transit projects in Toronto (after 2030, when OL, EWLRT, YNSE, and SSE are done) will look like this:

Yes, a crosstown connector north of Eglinton will be desperately needed by 2040. The 401 is not the busiest highway in the country for nothing.

Note: This image is for illustrative purposes, so it may not be fully accurate.

 

[smallspy]

The only time trains are turned back regularly outside of a service disruption is doing the morning rush hour when they are putting out trains both north and south from Willson yard.

Pre-COVID, there was a daily scheduled turnback at Glencairn Station. Every second train would turn back south from there.

If you look at those old schedules, you'll see it listed on there. You'll also notice that the headways are shorter in the morning than the afternoon - in part, it was due to this.

Dan

 

[H4F33Z]

I think that the next bunch of transit projects in Toronto (after 2030, when OL, EWLRT, YNSE, and SSE are done) will look like this:

View attachment 347366
Yes, a crosstown connector north of Eglinton will be desperately needed by 2040. The 401 is not the busiest highway in the country for nothing.

Note: This image is for illustrative purposes, so it may not be fully accurate.

How'd you forget Eglinton West extension to Airport?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Pre-COVID, there was a daily scheduled turnback at Glencairn Station. Every second train would turn back south from there.

If you look at those old schedules, you'll see it listed on there. You'll also notice that the headways are shorter in the morning than the afternoon - in part, it was due to this.

Dan

I get that but that doesn't mean that there is room for trains from a different line to be inserted into the line heading north like someone seems to think is possible or could happen.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I get that but that doesn't mean that there is room for trains from a different line to be inserted into the line heading north like someone seems to think is possible or could happen.

If every other train is being turned at Glen Cairn ... how is there not enough room?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

If every other train is being turned at Glen Cairn ... how is there not enough room?

It's only at the morning rush hour it's not all day long why would there be room for more trains. Also are there a lot of people heading from Sheppard to Vaughan that it's actually necessary to try and have trains interlining?

 

[allengeorge]

Huh. Interesting. In this TTC report I see the following:

"
Line 4 Sheppard East Extension
As part of their 2019 announcement, the Province indicated that they would consider an
eastward extension of Line 4 Sheppard, from Don Mills Station to connect with the
proposed station on the Line 2 extension at Sheppard Avenue and McCowan Road.
Metrolinx has indicated that planning work on this extension has commenced and will
be reported back in due course.
"

 

[kamira51]

I think that the next bunch of transit projects in Toronto (after 2030, when OL, EWLRT, YNSE, and SSE are done) will look like this:

View attachment 347366
Yes, a crosstown connector north of Eglinton will be desperately needed by 2040. The 401 is not the busiest highway in the country for nothing.

Note: This image is for illustrative purposes, so it may not be fully accurate.

The Ontario Line fits quite well in the Jane St corridor imo. It would be a perfect extension proposal, alongside the eastern side extension to Sheppard.

But I wonder if they would go for a grade-separated route, or elevated.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The Ontario Line fits quite well in the Jane St corridor imo. It would be a perfect extension proposal, alongside the eastern side extension to Sheppard.

But I wonder if they would go for a grade-separated route, or elevated.

I've said it in the fantasy thread, but my inclination is to get the OL up to Mount Dennis and then light rail further north, using Weston Rd or the rail ROW to reach the station.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think the assumption needs to be made that in the future GO rail will become more and more frequent and that within the central GTA it will approach subway frequency and capacity over time. With that assumption any plan to send the Ontario Line up to Bloor-Dundas makes no sense at all to me. There will be a King-Liberty station and a Bloor-Dundas station (single stop), so why trace that route? There is a north-south route on Hurontario and a north-south route in the Georgetown corridor so if the Ontario Line westerly extension is to become a north-south route it would make more sense for it to be in the middle of the existing lines. There is nothing from Humber Bay Shores / Mimico, to Kipling / Islington, the dense corridor of East and West Malls, and to the airport. Back when Kipling was first created there was a platform on the top level created for what was going to be a north-south connection so the need is nothing new. For that reason I would have Ontario Line West go Exhibition (GO/Streetcar), Jamieson, Roncesvalles-Queen (Streetcars), Windermere, Marine Parade, Park Lawn (GO/Waterfront West LRT), and then find the most direct diagonal between Kipling GO and Renforth Gateway with stops The Queensway, Kipling (Subway/Dundas BRT), East Mall - Burnhamthorpe, West Mall - Rathburn, Renforth (Busway/Crosstown), and Pearson Airport (UP/Finch LRT).

 

[W. K. Lis]

If you are heading downtown from Mount Dennis, it would be way faster to take GO RER service than an OL extension up there. It seems a bit redundant for the line to head up this way. My vote is for an elevated alignment either along the Queensway to Sherway Gardens, or along the Gardiner ROW, then up Islington, across Norseman to provide service to the huge employment area there, and then up Kipling to connect with Line 2.

There is currently the Union Pearson Express (UPX) with stops at Bloor (Dundas West Subway Station, still waiting for the proper connection though) and Weston (at Lawrence). By 2022, there will be an additional UPX station at Mt. Dennis, which will have a connection with Line 5. Waiting for a better fare connection between GO/UPX and the TTC.