superelevation
Active Member
Less than the maximum number of tph means exactly this, Sheppard trains would come in between Spadina ones. That's how interlining works. Anyways . . . +
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
Less than the maximum number of tph means exactly this, Sheppard trains would come in between Spadina ones. That's how interlining works. Anyways . . . +
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Whatever you aren't going to convince me that it's necessary or will work. The TTC would just screw it up like they did when line 2 opened because they didn't want it to actually work.
ARG1
Senior Member
The problem that Line 2 had was the construction. Because the 2 platforms were stacked on top of one another it meant that westbound or eastbound trains (for St. George and Bay respectively) would come on either one, and as such resulted in people just waiting for the next train on the stairs rather than on the platforms - which was a massive safety risk (and would cause so many problems long term). The reason why the stations were built that way and not cross platform interchanges was because the initial plan for the subway was to only go to St. George, the additional track to Keele was something the Ontario government paid for late into the design of the subway so they didn't have enough time to rethink the two stations. In other words, the failure of the interlining plan was far beyond the TTC's control.
Nowadays not only can we better design this junction, but we now have innovations like next train displays that simply didn't exist back in 1966 which means we can avoid the issues like people waiting on stairs, we just show passengers where the next train shows up and they can go there, plus ATC allows us to better moderate train throughput and better manage interlining.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Where are people getting that this is going to happen what source do you have that says anything about interlining line 1 and line 4? Until their is a report that shows its being considered from either the TTC or Metrolinx it's a fantasy of the people who seem to be grabbing at straws to justify it.
ARG1
Senior Member
No one is suggesting this is the plan, this is just something @Reecemartin suggested in his toronto fantasy map video.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
That explains it then I honestly don't watch most of his Videos. He posts then here to get views but doesn't come for any discussion on anything.
ARG1
Senior Member
I'm asking for why do you think that's not the case? York University is a major university, and there is a lot of demand from people travelling from North York to the University, not to mention people travelling to North York Centre from areas like Vaughan. How about Downsview Park Station? Wouldn't it be cool to take a subway from North York Centre to the Barrie Line where you can change to a train that will take you to downtown toronto in 12 minutes, or maybe north to Barrie for the weekend? If we only terminate Line 4 at Sheppard West, people will have to transfer to Line 1, ride 1 stop, then transfer to the Barrie Line which is a bit silly don't you think? Or how about the Finch West LRT? Even if we extend the LRT to Finch Station, you still have to ride Line 1 for 2 stops and transfer twice just to continue eastwards (or vice versa if you're going west). Why not have Line 4 interline with Line 1 so that you only have to transfer once to continue west?
The only things you have said that back up your arguments are allusions to the failed interlining plan from 1966, however the circumstances around that are completely different.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I'm still not sold on it actually works I don't really get why you seem to think that you need to sell me on this idea. I'm trying to present reasons for it not to work it's called a debate but people on here seem to think that someone can't depate an issue when they desagre with them.
ARG1
Senior Member
And I'm asking you to back up your reasoning on why you think it wouldn't work? Having certain trains double back or split before having an interlined section happens all the time. A strong example is Vancouver where the Expo Line branches into 2, and then one of the branches then interlines with the Millenium Line for 2 stations at the end where it itself short turns (This is similar to what's being proposed here for Sheppard, but a lot more complicated). This works basically without a hitch mainly because of the automation of the system. Meanwhile Montreal and Ottawa are planning to have short turns on their systems with Line 3 trains in Ottawa short turning at Blair during rush hours, and certain trains on the REM short turning at Gare Centrale and not continuing down to Brossard.
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EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I've said repeatedly why I don't think it would work. I don't think it would work I don't see any good reason for it. I honestly don't care what other cities do with their transportation systems. I personally think that interlining is confusing to people who don't use public transit offten also a delay on an interlined system causes more delays because it delays two or more lines instead of only one.
I'm not going to agree with you and you have shown no evidence that there are any plans for this to be carried out.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
You have presented:
1. This is fantasy
2. You don't understand the system
You don't care about how Toronto can progress? Under your plan, travel from Sheppard-Yonge to Jane-Finch, for example, entails 2 linear transfers at Sheppard West and Finch West. With interlining, you make that one linear transfer.
It's a minor interlining, with trains to very different destinations. I don't think people are that stupid.
There is no evidence that the Sheppard West is going ahead, but we're discussing it.
ARG1
Senior Member
The only thing you've said is why given our current setup it wouldn't be possible, mainly how the trains don't short turn outside of rush hour, but just because they don't, doesn't mean they can't.
This is a place to discuss ideas for public transit, whether or not something is confirmed or not doesn't really matter all too much. We discuss what we want to happen, and we discuss why that thing we want to happen isn't possible. Sure at some point you have to draw the line between future proposals and absolute fantasy where we have subways running every single street 300m apart, but this isn't one of those cases. You haven't actually backed up why this isn't possible or why this is a bad idea, you just said "the current government isn't planning this therefore its not worth discussing". I'm sorry but no western extension of the Sheppard Line is currently planned, and any discussion of interlining with Line 1 is basically on the same level of fantasy as extending it to Sheppard West in the first place.
You don't care what other cities do with their systems? That's a shame. You're basically saying that you think the way Toronto does things is absolutely ideal there is no room for improvement or to learn from other cities to maybe make our systems better. I know you probably don't mean this, but the reality is that we should be looking at what other cities are doing and observe and see where their style of construction can benefit what we're doing. In Montreal, many of their interchanges are cross platform, meaning that if you want to switch to another line, all you have to do is walk across the platform. Perhaps this is something that Toronto can learn from so that we can improve our transfer stations and not have another St. George Station?
Vancouver is building their system with smaller trains and are elevating their system more. This allowed Vancouver to build a system that is bigger than the Toronto Subway in a time frame that is half as long as the TTC Subway's, and for much cheaper. Perhaps that's something we could learn from them (which is precisely what we're doing with the Ontario Line, and what Montreal is doing with the REM)?
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I don't really get why me desagring with you is such a problem. I don't really get this whole not making multiple transfers is a problem for people. There are people who make them all the time either changing lines or changing to a bus or streetcar. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there are people who get on at Woodbine or Victoria park and then get off at main Street station to take the go train downtow. I just don't understand why it's so important for one group of people to be able to have a better connection then others.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I get that different systems are built differently but I don't see why we have to copy what everyone else does maybe something works in one city but it doesn't work in another.
ARG1
Senior Member
If you think something only works in one city and not in another, than you should at least try to explain with logic why you think it won't work. Easy example: Montreal has this design for their metro where the station is located significantly above the tunnel height which means that trains have to climb up right before a station - and this results in less energy needed to be used when accelerating out of a station or breaking into a station - gravity does much of the work. Unfortunately this cannot easily be replicated in Toronto as Toronto does not use rubber tyred trains and as such Toronto can't run the same steep grades that are possible in Montreal - or at least steep enough where the benefits of such design would really matter.
That's what I'm asking for, if you're going to say you don't agree with something, or think that there is a situation where some form of Toronto exceptionalism can apply, at least try to back it up with something. You tried with your 1966 interlining example, but there were many reasons why its an apples and oranges comparison that didn't reflect what we can do today.