Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

I don't think there's any case to be made against Finch to Yonge unless Sheppard West happens, but assuming we are headed in that direction both is going to be a really bad look politically even if the numbers could be made to work.

I get your point; the optics of two parallel lines just 2 km apart isn't great, when many other areas need transit improvements.

On the other hand, if the Sheppard line swings to Wilson west of Dufferin, then it is not that bad. One line for the Sheppard - Wilson corridor, serving both streets. Another line for Finch.

As far as difficulty of a junction, yes, but. In no scenario is what amounts to a single flyunder going to be a more costly piece of work than going west all the way to Pearson/Woodbine/Renforth.

The flyunder isn't a problem at all. I would be more worried about the connection points. It will be necessary to cut into the existing tunnels or stations to get the new tracks connected. And for the northbound direction, the trains need to merge safely, preventing the risk of a high-speed collision.

One of the better ways of merging is if the trains from either branch arrive to the same station, but each branch uses its own track. And then the two tracks merge into one just past the station, where the trains never run at a high speed. But is it possible to create that kind of setup at, say, the Downsview Park station, without completely rebuilding the existing station? I am not sure.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

One of the better ways of merging is if the trains from either branch arrive to the same station, but each branch uses its own track. And then the two tracks merge into one just past the station, where the trains never run at a high speed. But is it possible to create that kind of setup at, say, the Downsview Park station, without completely rebuilding the existing station? I am not sure.

Reece's take seemed to be to do this on the cheap, with a traditional interchange and just doing a simple junction somewhere to the north... I wouldn't advocate for a FLAT junction, but with the flyunder in place it's really not a significant signaling challenge to operate that merge reliably. Yes, this configuration does create the "which platform for the next departure" dilemma for northbound passengers boarding at Sheppard West, but this isn't a big demographic on the scale of these liens. Ideally, yes, we would do something like flanking the existing platforms with two additional islands, but my gut feeling is that this is in no way worth the cost, especially considering the contortions involved in getting Sheppard to approach the station from the south.

As far as tying into the existing tunnel, no, it's not exactly an easy bit of engineering, but also nothing more complex than had to be done for Yonge/Sheppard, was planned for Pape/Danforth pre Ontario Line or, honestly, will have to be done in any case of a Sheppard West extension to tie into Wilson Yard. Branching really is a bog standard piece of metro operations on a global scale, even granting the validity of most of the reliability and capacity splitting concerns.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really want to get too far into the weeds on interlining here short of the line actually reaching an EA, given that I fully expect current TTC management to flat out refuse to even consider it and the province not to care enough to fight for it. I do want to get it out there though that this is technically, operationally and financially feasible, not some exotic solution to be avoided.

 

[Rainforest]

Reece's take seemed to be to do this on the cheap, with a traditional interchange and just doing a simple junction somewhere to the north... I wouldn't advocate for a FLAT junction, but with the flyunder in place it's really not a significant signaling challenge to operate that merge reliably. Yes, this configuration does create the "which platform for the next departure" dilemma for northbound passengers boarding at Sheppard West, but this isn't a big demographic on the scale of these liens. Ideally, yes, we would do something like flanking the existing platforms with two additional islands, but my gut feeling is that this is in no way worth the cost, especially considering the contortions involved in getting Sheppard to approach the station from the south.

As far as tying into the existing tunnel, no, it's not exactly an easy bit of engineering, but also nothing more complex than had to be done for Yonge/Sheppard, was planned for Pape/Danforth pre Ontario Line or, honestly, will have to be done in any case of a Sheppard West extension to tie into Wilson Yard. Branching really is a bog standard piece of metro operations on a global scale, even granting the validity of most of the reliability and capacity splitting concerns.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really want to get too far into the weeds on interlining here short of the line actually reaching an EA, given that I fully expect current TTC management to flat out refuse to even consider it and the province not to care enough to fight for it. I do want to get it out there though that this is technically, operationally and financially feasible, not some exotic solution to be avoided.

Fair enough. I was more concerned about the connection part. If that can be done without extraordinary efforts, all the better.

The "which platform for the next departure" issue is less of a problem. Say, there could be two separate "Sheppard West" stations, the existing Line 1 station with the platform oriented N-S, and the new Line 4 station with the platform oriented E-W. The York U bound trains will be departing from both stations, but the riders will just chose either the one that runs more frequently, or the one that tends to be less crowded. A nuisance, but not a big deal, and only affects the northbound riders at one particular station.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Fair enough. I was more concerned about the connection part. If that can be done without extraordinary efforts, all the better.

The "which platform for the next departure" issue is less of a problem. Say, there could be two separate "Sheppard West" stations, the existing Line 1 station with the platform oriented N-S, and the new Line 4 station with the platform oriented E-W. The York U bound trains will be departing from both stations, but the riders will just chose either the one that runs more frequently, or the one that tends to be less crowded. A nuisance, but not a big deal, and only affects the northbound riders at one particular station.

It sounds kind of chaotic. That's one of the reasons why the TTC stopped interlining line 1 and line 2 it was too confusing for the average user and trains weren't always spaced out like they were supposed to be think of it as having three 504 King cars going to the loop at either end when all you want to do is get to either Dundas West station or Broadview station.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

It sounds kind of chaotic. That's one of the reasons why the TTC stopped interlining line 1 and line 2 it was too confusing for the average user and trains weren't always spaced out like they were supposed to be think of it as having three 504 King cars going to the loop at either end when all you want to do is get to either Dundas West station or Broadview station.

It's definitely not ideal, but in this case I'm inclined to think that decent next train signage would suffice given that this would not be a particularly high volume travel pattern and ought to mean significant reductions in up-front cost as well as a station configuration better suited to independent operation of lines if management does get fed up with interlining (or, you know, there is ever an actual western Sheppard extension).

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It's definitely not ideal, but in this case I'm inclined to think that decent next train signage would suffice given that this would not be a particularly high volume travel pattern and ought to mean significant reductions in up-front cost as well as a station configuration better suited to independent operation of lines if management does get fed up with interlining (or, you know, there is ever an actual western Sheppard extension).

I honestly don't think that they are going to interline the subways for revenue service. I could see them using it to transfer a train to Willson or Davisville yard but I don't really see them doing service runs like that.

 

[DirectionNorth]

It sounds kind of chaotic. That's one of the reasons why the TTC stopped interlining line 1 and line 2 it was too confusing for the average user and trains weren't always spaced out like they were supposed to be think of it as having three 504 King cars going to the loop at either end when all you want to do is get to either Dundas West station or Broadview station.

I don't see the problem. We do a limited amount of interlining with our streetcars, and GO, seems to work fine. This is a low ridership section, unlike at Bay or whatever.

Interlining isn't some big, scary transit un-improvement. Plenty of places have interlining.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Paint the trains different colours for each line if need be.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Paint the trains different colours for each line if need be.

I honestly cringe at that a lot more than interlining as a concept, but even dedicated fleets is just fine for this case given the divergent train lengths.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I don't see the problem. We do a limited amount of interlining with our streetcars, and GO, seems to work fine. This is a low ridership section, unlike at Bay or whatever.

Interlining isn't some big, scary transit un-improvement. Plenty of places have interlining.

I don't see it happening.

It's different with streetcars and go trains.

With go transit every line begins or ends at Union station and can go somewhere else. It's not really interlining it's just using equipment on a different line. Walt Disney World operates their bus system like that when a bus gets to a theme park it can get directed to go to a different hotel depending on demand.

I also wouldn't really say that the streetcars are interlined either in the same way that people on here seem to think that should be done with the Sheppard subway if it's extended west.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I don't see it happening.

It's different with streetcars and go trains.
With go transit every line begins or ends at Union station and can go somewhere else. It's not really interlining it's just using equipment on a different line. Walt Disney World operates their bus system like that when a bus gets to a theme park it can get directed to go to a different hotel depending on demand.

And streetcars?

I also wouldn't really say that the streetcars are interlined either in the same way that people on here seem to think that should be done with the Sheppard subway if it's extended west.

How are they "not interlined in the same way?"

Sheppard West - Vaughan Metro Ctr. interlining would allow for suburb-suburb travel without transfers. It also allows for greater greater use of the TYSSE.

Why don't you see it happening?

 

[dad pad]

I think the users of the line 1 extension would accept the increased 'confusion' of interlining if it meant that service would effectively double on that section of the line. The chaos should also be greatly mitigated by ATC (and there are also informational screens on the platforms that I believe already show the ETA of multiple trains with their terminating station listed). Also this is purely anecdotal but Sheppard to York University seems to be a pretty popular demand pair.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

IMO interlining would induce enough demand to extend this thing to Sheppard McCowan. You than give people from Vaughan a one seat ride to Scarborough, for those who work out east.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

And streetcars?

How are they "not interlined in the same way?"

Sheppard West - Vaughan Metro Ctr. interlining would allow for suburb-suburb travel without transfers. It also allows for greater greater use of the TYSSE.

Why don't you see it happening?

Because it's too complex for the average TTC Rider to understand. It's also not needed as much as people seem to think it is. I'm not going to argue about this anymore as you clearly seem to be set that it's an amazing idea and it should be done very easily and nobody is going to have any problems or complaints about it.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

It's also not needed as much as people seem to think it is

The main thing to me on this isn't that it necessarily a huge amount of traffic, particularly on opening day, but that it really salvages a lot of trip patterns that we would be trying to serve with a Sheppard West extension but end up having obnoxious one station transfers without it. Frankly, I'm reasonably comfortable telling people to transfer to YUS for York U and Vaughan... Connecting to Barrie GO or Finch W much less so, and while the same applies for 407 GO, reducing the transfer is definitely a real positive on connections to genuinely regional services.

Moreover, the possibility of through lining comes at a level of construction complexity on par with what would be built without provision for interlining.