11th
Senior Member
That is mostly true for streets in the core, but not so much in the suburbs. However, the popular opinion here is, "one less lane".
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
sixrings
Senior Member
But the suburbs have that strip of grass between the curb and the sidewalk. They have literally the easiest way to add bike lanes without reducing any road space.
dahusbandofbath
Active Member
The grass between the curb and the sidewalk leaves room for piling snow.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
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- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 7,489
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- 1,546
- Location
- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
This might be another disaster like the Crosstown if the province builds this. Ontario should fund it, but the TTC should design and complete this.
ARG1
Senior Member
That's assuming the TTC still has the institutional knowledge to do something like this. I don't think the TTC is in a better position to fulfill a project like this (if anything, Metrolinx literally has 4 subway projects right now, I think its easy to argue that they are at an advantageous position in terms of experience).
robmausser
Senior Member
ehhh TTC is no better
After delays, cost overruns, and tragedy, a subway to Vaughan is complete
The $3.2-billion project extends the subway network outside of Toronto for the first time, but critics wonder if it’s money well spent.
www.thestar.com
https://archive.is/5Kqpw
How the price tag doubled for the St. Clair line
Lack of central oversight, construction add-ons blamed for the cost skyrocketing to $106-million
www.theglobeandmail.com
The new St. Clair streetcar ROW shows signs of sloppy construction and lack of standards
On June 28th, buried deep on the TTC's website under its construction tab, was an interesting announcement: "On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, street…
www.blogto.com
More headaches for the St. Clair right-of-way
Taxpayers are on the hook again to pay more bills for the problem-plagued St. Clair streetcar right-of-way.
torontosun.com
St. Clair ROW: What Went Wrong
Forgive me because I don't know all the history behind St. Clair ROW, but everyone seems to complain about it, and say it is not an example to base Transit City on etc. What are the issues with St. Clair, what went wrong? To me, on the surface it sounds like a great idea. RoW on a busy...
Last edited:
Northern Light
Superstar
The TTC still has a huge construction and planning division, and is heavily involved in any Mx project where they are likely to be the future operator.
Regrettably this is not true.
By which I mean, Mx has very few direct staff knowledgeable about building these types of projects, they tend to contract for that expertise.
Additionally,Mx has incredibly high churn.......so when they do get people who know what they're doing...........they leave.
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That's not to suggest the TTC would necessarily do a much better job managing these projects..........though I doubt they would do any worse.
****
Its worth noting Mx doesn't even directly operate GO Trains. It owns the rolling stock and the yards and much of the rail, but it contracts out the rail maintenance and the operation of the trains to third parties.
nfitz
Superstar
That seems a bit much after the post-mortem put very little of the St. Clair blame on TTC. And given that TTC streetcar track work is generally on-time, if not early.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 7,489
- Reaction score
- 1,546
- Location
- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
My problem with this is that MX's very first project they messed it up. Even when the Crosstown is done, We have to build the Eglinton East LRT separately because they messed up the tunnel, which hurts it's business case. FWLRT only go done because they didn't have to dig down anywhere.
The subways they can get done. There was a delay on the Yonge University extension, but that was months and not years. That was also because of Del Duca. I will give you the streetcars, but they could fix that easily if they had the willpower too. They need to open more reserve tracks so it's easier to modify routes imo.ehhh TTC is no better
After delays, cost overruns, and tragedy, a subway to Vaughan is complete
The $3.2-billion project extends the subway network outside of Toronto for the first time, but critics wonder if it’s money well spent.
https://archive.is/5Kqpw
How the price tag doubled for the St. Clair line
Lack of central oversight, construction add-ons blamed for the cost skyrocketing to $106-million
The new St. Clair streetcar ROW shows signs of sloppy construction and lack of standards
On June 28th, buried deep on the TTC's website under its construction tab, was an interesting announcement: "On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, street…
More headaches for the St. Clair right-of-way
Taxpayers are on the hook again to pay more bills for the problem-plagued St. Clair streetcar right-of-way.
St. Clair ROW: What Went Wrong
Forgive me because I don't know all the history behind St. Clair ROW, but everyone seems to complain about it, and say it is not an example to base Transit City on etc. What are the issues with St. Clair, what went wrong? To me, on the surface it sounds like a great idea. RoW on a busy...urbantoronto.ca
MX is full of ex consultants, that's the first problem. Ford is too hands off now.
asher__jo
Active Member
Can we maybe not use this feed to discuss a transit agencies competenceehhh TTC is no better
After delays, cost overruns, and tragedy, a subway to Vaughan is complete
The $3.2-billion project extends the subway network outside of Toronto for the first time, but critics wonder if it’s money well spent.
https://archive.is/5Kqpw
How the price tag doubled for the St. Clair line
Lack of central oversight, construction add-ons blamed for the cost skyrocketing to $106-million
The new St. Clair streetcar ROW shows signs of sloppy construction and lack of standards
On June 28th, buried deep on the TTC's website under its construction tab, was an interesting announcement: "On Wednesday, June 30, 2010, street…
More headaches for the St. Clair right-of-way
Taxpayers are on the hook again to pay more bills for the problem-plagued St. Clair streetcar right-of-way.
St. Clair ROW: What Went Wrong
Forgive me because I don't know all the history behind St. Clair ROW, but everyone seems to complain about it, and say it is not an example to base Transit City on etc. What are the issues with St. Clair, what went wrong? To me, on the surface it sounds like a great idea. RoW on a busy...
mikey7767
New Member
Nahh, I think a transit agency's competence is quite important and relevant, considering they will be operating the new LRT and they take on quite a number of infrastructure projects....if you don't wanna discuss it, just don't be a part of the discussion.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
I mean, based on the past couple of years, Metrolinx has somewhat taken on the role of a contract administrator, rather than an agency building a design department. That to me says enough. We've seen cases in North America where a bulk of the design (or at least the input) comes in from the operator (The TTC, BART, ARTM, WMATA, MTA, SEPTA, and the CTA), and the picture isn't particularly clear.
On one hand, we'll have successful projects like the TYSSE, BART SVi (not ii), WMATA Silver Line, CTA and the Red Line Extension/new Red, but on the other, we'll have projects like the ARTM's blue line extension, all the MTA extensions, and the SEPTA KOP extension. What differentiates these projects? Truthfully, it's hard to tell, perhaps it's the extent of outsourcing, perhaps it's the QC standards, perhaps it's even the built environment, but regardless of what it is, there's no definitive explanation.
Contrast this to the P3 model, where the success stories of REM, the Canada Line, the Regional Connector, the MBTA green line extension (post restructuring), iON, maybe even Sepulveda, but these usually come at the cost of extreme value engineering (see the terrible lack of passenger grade separation on the MBTA green line, the patchwork on iON, the lack of escalators on REM, or the extremely small stations on the Canada line), high operations costs (see the OL, Canada Line, potentially even REM), or design sacrifices (regional connector surface sections, iON 90° turns).
However, for every success story we see with the P3 model, we see a disaster show of some sort — the Crosstown, Finch West, the Maryland Purple Line, LAX people mover, Honolulu's Skyline...all projects mired in issues that have ballooned costs in some manner.
Like with the P3 model, the Design-Build model is really a dice roll when it comes to project stability. Honestly, it's really anyones guess over whether Sheppard going the Metrolinx/TTC path will be effective. We'll honestly have to wait and see what becomes of the SSE — an extension of the existing subway system. If Metrolinx management can pull it off and commission it within a similar timeframe as the TYSSE, then whatever they're doing is effective enough. If it becomes a logistical nightmare like the Crosstown, we have other issues then.
On one hand, we'll have successful projects like the TYSSE, BART SVi (not ii), WMATA Silver Line, CTA and the Red Line Extension/new Red, but on the other, we'll have projects like the ARTM's blue line extension, all the MTA extensions, and the SEPTA KOP extension. What differentiates these projects? Truthfully, it's hard to tell, perhaps it's the extent of outsourcing, perhaps it's the QC standards, perhaps it's even the built environment, but regardless of what it is, there's no definitive explanation.
Contrast this to the P3 model, where the success stories of REM, the Canada Line, the Regional Connector, the MBTA green line extension (post restructuring), iON, maybe even Sepulveda, but these usually come at the cost of extreme value engineering (see the terrible lack of passenger grade separation on the MBTA green line, the patchwork on iON, the lack of escalators on REM, or the extremely small stations on the Canada line), high operations costs (see the OL, Canada Line, potentially even REM), or design sacrifices (regional connector surface sections, iON 90° turns).
However, for every success story we see with the P3 model, we see a disaster show of some sort — the Crosstown, Finch West, the Maryland Purple Line, LAX people mover, Honolulu's Skyline...all projects mired in issues that have ballooned costs in some manner.
Like with the P3 model, the Design-Build model is really a dice roll when it comes to project stability. Honestly, it's really anyones guess over whether Sheppard going the Metrolinx/TTC path will be effective. We'll honestly have to wait and see what becomes of the SSE — an extension of the existing subway system. If Metrolinx management can pull it off and commission it within a similar timeframe as the TYSSE, then whatever they're doing is effective enough. If it becomes a logistical nightmare like the Crosstown, we have other issues then.
dowlingm
Senior Member
TYSSE - didn’t Byford fire some guys on that right after he took over? And there was a lawsuit about who would pay overruns? Ain’t no project without drama, it seems
turbanplanner
Senior Member
It gets worse! The TTC was suing the builder for not building to plan, then also suing the architect for making bad plans. Which the builder said why are you suing us if you gave us bad plans?