Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

This also brings up a good point.. is STC even the right location to become Scarborough's city centre? It always felt a desolate area that's psychologically isolated from the rest of Scarborough. The road network is awful and the mall is a hindrance to grand schemes or an attractive public realm.

If the subway is to stop at Agincourt, maybe it even makes sense to shift the city centre to this area instead. Kennedy/Sheppard are much better suited to develop a high density civic core ala NYCC.

Perhaps it wasn't the best location from the onset. However, it would be difficult to "shift" the condos etc already built there. Plus, some feeder bus routes would become longer if they are re-routed to feed into Agincourt.

IMO, there is no need to designate one single city centre, rather the transit should be improved to support multiple nodes of density. Agincourt is definitely one of those nodes. I would also add the McCowan & Sheppard station back, to shorten the northern bus routes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This also brings up a good point.. is STC even the right location to become Scarborough's city centre? It always felt a desolate area that's psychologically isolated from the rest of Scarborough. The road network is awful and the mall is a hindrance to grand schemes or an attractive public realm.

If the subway is to stop at Agincourt, maybe it even makes sense to shift the city centre to this area instead. Kennedy/Sheppard are much better suited to develop a high density civic core ala NYCC.

I've always contended that Kennedy/Eglinton was a natural location for SCC. It would be Scarborough's "gateway" with Crosstown LRT, GO RER and Line 2. The area is also much better suited for an urban and walkable community.

 

[Rainforest]

Just created these two polls:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-upgrade-in-the-sheppard-east-corridor.27696/

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...corridor-versus-other-transit-projects.27697/

Would prefer to create them in this thread, but didn't find how to pull such a trick.

 

[OneCity]

I'll try to create two thread polls, later today. One about the most desirable next step on Sheppard East (more options than just subway vs LRT), and another one on the priority of Sheppard east vs other projects in the city.

Maybe a third to ask what past of the City, or GTA each poster is from? I think it plays a role in the results and its interesting to know what area of the City are represented here

 

[OneCity]

I've always contended that Kennedy/Eglinton was a natural location for SCC. It would be Scarborough's "gateway" with Crosstown LRT, GO RER and Line 2. The area is also much better suited for an urban and walkable community.

Kennedy and Eglinton will have a great future being full of transit options which indeed make it a no brainer to develop heavily. But I disagree as far as the "City Centre" goes I see SCC is much more "central" and accessible to those in the East and North. Also the 401 access is a benefit. Kennedy and Eglinton is a bit too SE and distant from much of Scarborough to be considered the City Centre

Agincourt, SCC and Keglinton are all going to be main growth areas in Scarborough future. Im excited for the day they give the green light for re-development around Kennedy and Eglinton.

 

[DB9]

Perhaps it wasn't the best location from the onset. However, it would be difficult to "shift" the condos etc already built there. Plus, some feeder bus routes would become longer if they are re-routed to feed into Agincourt.

IMO, there is no need to designate one single city centre, rather the transit should be improved to support multiple nodes of density. Agincourt is definitely one of those nodes. I would also add the McCowan & Sheppard station back, to shorten the northern bus routes.

There's no need to shift the condos - just let the private sector decide where the new condos should be built. I think if the city upzoned Agincourt, Kennedy&Eg, and SCC, you'll see the first two boom, with STC falling behind.

 

[OneCity]

There's no need to shift the condos - just let the private sector decide where the new condos should be built. I think if the city upzoned Agincourt, Kennedy&Eg, and SCC, you'll see the first two boom, with STC falling behind.

Kennedy and Eglinton will certainly be the most popular once they open it up. SCC will get a good bump from the subway sales pitch over the RT no matter how much less area it covers. And it also has a head start and a couple big multi tower projects in the pipeline already. The RT was a great marketing tool in TO.

 

[Hopkins123]

At the same time the Sheppard Subway was built, the 510 Spadina was also introduced. Both lines are 5 kilometres in length; both have identical ridership numbers. The differences: 510 Spadina is now overcapacity, while Sheppard operates at a fraction of its capacity. Spadina is expected to see huge gains in ridership (once we have enough LRVs to meeet demand), while Sheppard has remained stagnant for more than half a decade, even while Toronto's population booms. Spadina $150 Million and Sheppard cost $1 Billion. Sheppard connects to the failed North York Centre, while Spadina connects to the fastest growing residential and commercial districts in the country (despite minimal infrastructure investments in those areas).

I want to live in the alternate reality where that $1 Billion was spent building a Spadina subway line (mind that I'd never support building a Spadina Subway because that's a really, really dumb idea, when we could be building the DRL).

Doesn't this speak more to the failing of surface rail, like 510 Spadina, to meet present let alone the future capacity demands though? If Sheppard Subway has capacity to spare, that's actually a good thing. We don't want when the day comes when 200,000+ riders daily are commuting along the Sheppard corridor, we have nothing to fall back on.

This incessant need to cut corners and ergo reject any potential subway project outright that's not the DRL will get Toronto nowhere. I still know the commute from Malvern to the DRL at Don Mills will still be insanely long whether surface rail linking the two points is built or not.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doesn't this speak more to the failing of surface rail, like 510 Spadina, to meet present let alone the future capacity demands though? If Sheppard Subway has capacity to spare, that's actually a good thing. We don't want when the day comes when 200,000+ riders daily are commuting along the Sheppard corridor, we have nothing to fall back on.

No, it speaks to the inability of the City to provide the TTC with enough streetcars to meet demand.

Sheppard is only using 16% of its capacity. That's not good. The line was overbuilt.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I just realized something, the Viva Davis Drive Rapidway is the Sheppard Stubway of York Region . Very little ridership with too high frequencies, connected to the main line at the north (Viva Blue/Line 1), not built long enough (Victoria Park/Highway 404), and built because of politics (North York is still Toronto/Newmarket is still York Region). Now if only York Region had a high need of a "Downtown Relief Line" and isn't being built .

There's probably something to be learned from this, but can someone else come up with it ?

 

[transitnoob]

As long as there are no stats, no density, not enough money, to support a subway, while at the same time advocating canceling lrt lines then it is not I who is the troll.

Amen brother.

It's clear that those people here that continue to vocalize support wasting the city's limited funds on transit escapades that have no basis in established ridership are the real trolls.

 

[OneCity]

Amen brother.

It's clear that those people here that continue to vocalize support wasting the city's limited funds on transit escapades that have no basis in established ridership are the real trolls.

The current SSE, and Sheppard stub in their current state are undoubtedly clear symbols of poor the poor planning you speak of. But there is more to building transit than just ridership when you are no planning off blank template. Connectivity and connecting main areas similar to what is being built elsewhere and what has been built is important, adding extra transfers that dont currently exist to "mistakes" of the past is not good planning not matter what the ridership (fix the mistake first), The RT was a also mistake on many aspects not just the ridership, the funding problem has more to do with lack of planning. Troll is a misused term for anyone that doesn't agree with that sentiment, but I get you are frustrated. I really do because the current plan is not right, but either was the transfer LRT lines for reasons other than being suitable for ridership. I think anyone on either side of these debates that is not willing to find some common ground here is a big problem and were all about to get screwed because of this in the end.

I don't want to see it happen Sheppard. Lots of time to prevent this or fix mistake of the past. Scarborough doesn't need an extra, unnecessary poorly planned transfer because of it. Fighting is not going to save any money and Toronto needs to keep lobbying loudly to get the funding for the DRL, the more time it waste fighting internally, the more focus is taken away from the bigger issue of funds from higher levels.

 

[MisterF]

Doesn't this speak more to the failing of surface rail, like 510 Spadina, to meet present let alone the future capacity demands though? If Sheppard Subway has capacity to spare, that's actually a good thing. We don't want when the day comes when 200,000+ riders daily are commuting along the Sheppard corridor, we have nothing to fall back on.

This incessant need to cut corners and ergo reject any potential subway project outright that's not the DRL will get Toronto nowhere. I still know the commute from Malvern to the DRL at Don Mills will still be insanely long whether surface rail linking the two points is built or not.

On the flip side, this incessant need to extend subways farther and farther into the suburbs while spending very little where the demand is greatest has gotten Toronto nowhere. As for Malvern, it would be much better served by RER for trips downtown than any kind of subway/LRT/bus combination.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

On the flip side, this incessant need to extend subways farther and farther into the suburbs while spending very little where the demand is greatest has gotten Toronto nowhere. As for Malvern, it would be much better served by RER for trips downtown than any kind of subway/LRT/bus combination.

This is the leaderships fault.


Plus half of Sheppard East has been built already. This is why I was against the Bloor Danforth extension, I knew this would be next. You can't have one without the other. Just build both of them, connect sheppard west to the University extension and let's move on.

 

[Rainforest]

There's no need to shift the condos - just let the private sector decide where the new condos should be built. I think if the city upzoned Agincourt, Kennedy&Eg, and SCC, you'll see the first two boom, with STC falling behind.

I am all for upzoning each of those nodes.

However, I don't see why STC would fall much behind the other two. Is the location so much less convenient? At most, the property prices at STC would be slightly lower than say at Agincourt, but it still would sell well.