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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

kEiThZ said:
We are well past the point where the City Centre can be moved. It's been there for decades. There has been development going on around it.....albeit very, very slowly. And it's going to be on a transit corridor, be that a subway or LRT.

Agincourt will be a great node, but I don't see much potential for densification around it. It's just not going to happen. I guess the mall offers a spot to rip up and add density. But other than that....

What Agincourt does offer though is a reasonable linear transfer point in my opinion. East of Agincourt, curbside bus lanes would be enough. All the way to Port Union. And there'd be some exchange of passengers with GO RER/SmartTrack.

I still think conversion to LRT is better. But if we're going to have a subway, it's better to start talking about it and shaping the outcome now.
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Agincourt right now is still pretty underdeveloped, though it's slightly better than the Golden Mile. The whole Sheppard strip from Vic Park to McCowan has plenty of upzoning opportunities, plenty of disposable strip malls to bulldoze. The surrounding neighbourhoods could eventually be upzoned too. Even at Midland and Sheppard, there's a giant and weedy vacant lot steps away from the GO train station. The area is ugly as hell, but there's still way more pedestrian traffic in that area than what I've seen in STC outside of the mall.

The rezoning of the Consumers Road employment area would make a perfect bookend to this new city centre district. It has much more potential to achieve the success that NYCC has so far.

Even if STC remains the "administrative" city centre, its many drawbacks will mean that it'll never live up to its potential, no matter how many resources are plowed into that area. It's pretty much a lost cause, a nonredeemable planning mistake by the old City of Scarborough.
 
I grew up near that weedy lot by midland and sheppard. I dont doubt that there are huge lots which could be redeveloped but the costs to build condos in scarborough are similar to what they are downtown which is why we see much more development in the core since they can get higher prices there. Also how many years away is this theoretical development. How much opposition will it see. And if there are other areas of the city such as liberty village or Humber bay booming without transit should we not focus our finances there instead?
 
sixrings said:
I grew up near that weedy lot by midland and sheppard. I dont doubt that there are huge lots which could be redeveloped but the costs to build condos in scarborough are similar to what they are downtown which is why we see much more development in the core since they can get higher prices there. Also how many years away is this theoretical development. How much opposition will it see. And if there are other areas of the city such as liberty village or Humber bay booming without transit should we not focus our finances there instead?
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This area will primarily benefit from investments in GO RER, so I don't see why this area shouldn't see complementary investments that'll help facilitate growth. Condo applications are already creeping up at Vic Park/Pharmacy & Sheppard, and there's Tridel's Metrogate just down the street. Agincourt mall itself now has a long-term redevelopment plan. The demand is already there..and all the more surprising, given that this area has no existing higher order transit in place nearby & no weekend/non-rush hour GO train service, in contrast to LV or Humber Bay.

I personally think a subway is overkill, but LRT is definitely the logical next step for the area. It's no different than LV or Humber Bay. All three regions will primarily benefit from GO RER, with feeder streetcar/LRT lines serving local needs.
 
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kEiThZ said:
We are well past the point where the City Centre can be moved. It's been there for decades. There has been development going on around it.....albeit very, very slowly. And it's going to be on a transit corridor, be that a subway or LRT.

Agincourt will be a great node, but I don't see much potential for densification around it. It's just not going to happen. I guess the mall offers a spot to rip up and add density. But other than that....

What Agincourt does offer though is a reasonable linear transfer point in my opinion. East of Agincourt, curbside bus lanes would be enough. All the way to Port Union. And there'd be some exchange of passengers with GO RER/SmartTrack.

I still think conversion to LRT is better. But if we're going to have a subway, it's better to start talking about it and shaping the outcome now.
Click to expand...

The location of SCC is fine. The bigger issue is the cost of the subway extension and for anyone to say there is no development is a complete falsehood. Certainly it was stunted from growth during the transit chaos, but what already exists is a very significant start from east of McCowan to Brimley and there are some large proposals in the cue for both those areas. Agincourt is also going to be a dense "place" own and will require transit at some point in the not so far off future based on how they re currently developing around. I just do see how they would ever get the support to build any type of LRT without doing something to make the stubway LRT. If the City if not going to change the stub, I don't even think LRT is worth considering again after the exercise we just went thru. It was shelved because it had little support. The only ones calling for the line back were mainly outside Scarborough. Proposing anything similar again will see less support IMO
 
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DB9 said:
This area will primarily benefit from investments in GO RER, so I don't see why this area shouldn't see complementary investments that'll help facilitate growth. Condo applications are already creeping up at Vic Park/Pharmacy & Sheppard, and there's Tridel's Metrogate just down the street. Agincourt mall itself now has a long-term redevelopment plan. The demand is already there..and all the more surprising, given that this area has no existing higher order transit in place nearby & no weekend/non-rush hour GO train service, in contrast to LV or Humber Bay.

I personally think a subway is overkill, but LRT is definitely the logical next step for the area. It's no different than LV or Humber Bay. All three regions will primarily benefit from GO RER, with feeder streetcar/LRT lines serving local needs.
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my parents took the agincourt go to work daily. I too would like to see Sheppard have LRT so I could visit it from time to time and see from a LRT window the weedy lots be developed. My fear is that some people simply dont want LRT not because its inferior transit but because it takes up lanes from their road space. They wont publicly say that but it is true. Or others that their house will increase in value despite not wanting their neighbours to sell their lots for redevelopment. However this is just speculation but it is based partly on my experience going to meetings about the crosstown where mercedes driving home owners didnt want the transit, not because it wouldnt be good for the neighbourhood, but because they wouldnt use it. So some people have bad motivation while others cant be pleased. I would really appreciate being able to get around the city without buses. With all this talk about RER or Smarttrack I fail to see the need for these subways. Unless of course people are doubting that smarttrack will actually be a thing. But if it is a thing why wouldnt one rather take a LRT to the Smarttrack station than a bus.
 
OneCity said:
The location of SCC is fine. The bigger issue is the cost of the subway extension and for anyone to say there is no development is a complete falsehood. Certainly it was stunted from growth during the transit chaos, but what already exists is a very significant start from east of McCowan to Brimley and there are some large proposals in the cue for both those areas. Agincourt is also going to be a dense "place" own and will require transit at some point in the not so far off future based on how they re currently developing around. I just do see how they would ever get the support to build any type of LRT without doing something to make the stubway LRT.
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Perhaps OneCity cant see my reply but this is what I would say. Other areas are growing significantly faster than STC in Toronto with no Subway to them. Why are we choosing with limited funds to serve communities that are growing at a slower rate faster than those bursting at the seems.

this first article is how humber bay is booming...

http://www.metronews.ca/your-home/toronto/2016/02/25/humber-bay-a-growing-city-within-a-city-.html

this second article is how the population is falling near STC...

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...eas-near-planned-scarborough-subway-stop.html
 
sixrings said:
my parents took the agincourt go to work daily. I too would like to see Sheppard have LRT so I could visit it from time to time and see from a LRT window the weedy lots be developed. My fear is that some people simply dont want LRT not because its inferior transit but because it takes up lanes from their road space. They wont publicly say that but it is true. Or others that their house will increase in value despite not wanting their neighbours to sell their lots for redevelopment. However this is just speculation but it is based partly on my experience going to meetings about the crosstown where mercedes driving home owners didnt want the transit, not because it wouldnt be good for the neighbourhood, but because they wouldnt use it. So some people have bad motivation while others cant be pleased. I would really appreciate being able to get around the city without buses. With all this talk about RER or Smarttrack I fail to see the need for these subways. Unless of course people are doubting that smarttrack will actually be a thing. But if it is a thing why wouldnt one rather take a LRT to the Smarttrack station than a bus.
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I think your fears are well-founded, and at the end of the day, we will need Scarborough politicians to discard their petty populism, and really champion the best causes that'll benefit Scarborough. It's a travesty that Scarborough is stuck with the 6dad and Karygiannis, instead of a Pam McConnell or Joe Cressey.

I think Crosstown will change the perception of LRT though, and hopefully the excitement from seeing the LRT being built in the Golden Mile will spark some movement on the Sheppard line.
 
the crosstown, hurontario, and finch are the lines which i hope transforms torontonians minds. Sometimes people need to see things to eliminate their fears. I am happy also that the new streetcars are showing up because although LRTs are faster than streetcars it is good for people to see what modern rail tech can look like.
 
sixrings said:
For instance Eglinton was cancelled for political reasons so that sheppard could be built for political reasons
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This needs to be corrected for the millionth time, because it's wrong. Sheppard wasn't build instead of Eglinton. Bob Rae's government had started working on both projects (both as stubs - a Sheppard line to Victoria Park and an Eglinton line to Keele), and Mike Harris's government cancelled the latter. There was some political nonsense on Metro Council, but it wasn't about whether or not to build the line, but rather how to build it. Metro shortened it from Victoria Park to Don Mills, then to Leslie, then agreed to build the tunnels without any stations, and eventually agreed to build a subway to Don Mills.
 
DB9 said:
If Toronto was really a "metropolis" in transit planning for the last 50 years, we wouldn't be in today's predicament. Until Toronto takes politics out of transit planning, it will never be a "metropolis" in terms of transit.
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Metflopolis Confirmed
 
DB9 said:
I think Crosstown will change the perception of LRT though, and hopefully the excitement from seeing the LRT being built in the Golden Mile will spark some movement on the Sheppard line.
Click to expand...

I love the Crosstown LRT. But it wont change the perception at all on Sheppard at all. The Crosstown LRT was never seen as a problem aside from it being at grade which was called out before. Sheppard residents have their own "fairness" & connectivity concerns and technology isn't the issue here
 
sixrings said:
I'm sorry keithz for making a statement without facts.

Can you or someone else who supports this extension please explain to me how this is financially a good plan in comparison to the ridership it is projected to get.
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1. Mass public transit lines are never financially good plans. If you build a mass transit line and it is instantly financially feasible, then it means your city has failed in every respect to provide transportation alternatives to the masses and that you have lost countless dollars in economic inefficiencies for a very extended period of time.

2. Sheppard is in many ways one of the best corridors to redevelop. The many developments along the corridor that's happening now (and will continue to happen for many decades to come) would've not have been possible without the existing subway line.

3. With the Yonge line burst at the seems, it makes sense to build a mass transit line east to the RER Agincourt station so we can divert some traffic there.

4. You need to explain to me why you, in a previous post, believed that North York City Centre is a failure.
 
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