Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[sixrings]

1. Therefore choose the most expensive form of transit?

2. Great corridor but why are other areas booming without transit yet need transit. Why should we choose Sheppard over these other areas.

3. Why are we not diverting people to the drl long at donmills instead of making another random terminus.

4 where did I say that north York centre was a failure. Or is that what you infer based on my disagreement that eglinton should never have been cancelled for Sheppard? North York centre would have grown whether there was a Sheppard line or not. What wouldn't have happened is the ikea and Canadian tire land being redeveloped as well as bayview. But again both humber bay and liberty village are equally if not more successful without a subway to create it's development

 

[DB9]

I love the Crosstown LRT. But it wont change the perception at all on Sheppard at all. The Crosstown LRT was never seen as a problem aside from it being at grade which was called out before. Sheppard residents have their own "fairness" & connectivity concerns and technology isn't the issue here

This whole squabble is definitely about "inferior" technology, and how it's "unfair" that Scarborough gets the shaft with a cheap-out, to the point we're missing the big picture in regards to the transit mix that really benefits Scarborough.

Many of my friends and relatives still do the commute from hell from NW Scarborough, and even they admit that the Sheppard subway won't really do anything to make the commute better. Eventually we just all give up and drive to the offices in midtown or downtown, or just move away from Scarborough.

The only way to keep them in Scarborough is a beefed-up RER (beyond what's proposed right now) and the DRL, with good connections to both (i.e. Sheppard LRT). Money should be prioritized for these two projects.

 

[sixrings]

I love the Crosstown LRT. But it wont change the perception at all on Sheppard at all. The Crosstown LRT was never seen as a problem aside from it being at grade which was called out before. Sheppard residents have their own "fairness" & connectivity concerns and technology isn't the issue here

We are back to "fairness" to justify this line. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why are we not diverting people to the drl long at donmills instead of making another random terminus.

Because there's no DRL long? There will be improved GO service at Agincourt, at least a full decade before the DRL reaches Sheppard. Outside of transitfan forums there's really not been substantial discussion on a DRL reaching Sheppard.

That said, LRT or subway, or even BRT. It's irrelevant at Agincourt. All will feed the GO RER service there. If you'e coming from the East, it's faster to get off in Agincourt and take the GO to get you downtown, then say on till Don Mills, only to ride a subway with stops every km. Toronto just needs to get rid of this mindset that subways are meant to get you to downtown. Sadly, that mentality is as pervasive with the DRL crowd as it is with the Scarborough Subway crowd.

 

[OneCity]

This whole squabble is definitely about "inferior" technology, and how it's "unfair" that Scarborough gets the shaft with a cheap-out, to the point we're missing the big picture in regards to the transit mix that really benefits Scarborough.

Many of my friends and relatives still do the commute from hell from NW Scarborough, and even they admit that the Sheppard subway won't really do anything to make the commute better. Eventually we just all give up and drive to the offices in midtown or downtown, or just move away from Scarborough.

The only way to keep them in Scarborough is a beefed-up RER (beyond what's proposed right now) and the DRL, with good connections to both.

Unfair yes. But try not to focus too much on all the Political charades, which have many elements to get a rise out of a certain type of supporter and more important piss off the opposition just because people are apathetic and OK with that these days. IMO Residents here have 3 main underlying issues as it pertains to Sheppard and its is all about percieved "fairness"

1. Watching the subway stub stop at the border of North York for decades and having resident see the high end condos exploding around major stop. (And then we want to add an addition transfer with a different tech.?)
2. The RT has a separate technology connecting to the main system and was perceived as a failure for many reasons. Make no mistake the perception is not good.
3. Neglect of doing nothing for decades. It affects us all in this City. But it has certainly ticked off residents here and amplified there issues of 1 & 2

I understand you points but this is what it is in term of perception and the Poltics have tapped in and amplified it. So its now a thing for better and surely the consensus here.. worse. The subway will help some, the LRT would help some and to some extent both are positive and negative depending on distance of travel and where your headed, whether the extra transfer impacts you (elderly, parents with kids, disabled etc). I see the benefits to extending transit further, but I also don't agree with the design of a short subway stub to LRT. It really is dumb planning if you can call it planning and I get why people don't support it.

Fix the connection problem and I don't think youd see much issue with the LRT as a technology on Sheppard. Just my opinion on what it will take to move on. Which is the most important thing. And although I said Eglinton will not change the perceptions here. It will get Scarborough one step closer to some transit unity and the sooner we can find a solution here to move on the sooner well never have to deal with such a major divide and the City. The problem does exist and we have to find some comparable solution as fighting for decades will only jack up the costs. Build the subway or do something about the LRT and ruffle the North Yorkers to love surface LRT too. Only way this is getting done without further strife IMO

 

[DB9]

That said, LRT or subway, or even BRT. It's irrelevant at Agincourt. All will feed the GO RER service there. If you'e coming from the East, it's faster to get off in Agincourt and take the GO to get you downtown, then say on till Don Mills, only to ride a subway with stops every km. Toronto just needs to get rid of this mindset that subways are meant to get you to downtown. Sadly, that mentality is as pervasive with the DRL crowd as it is with the Scarborough Subway crowd.

The province and Metrolinx also has to get the integration pricing right. Like LV and Humber Bay, Scarborough residents shouldn't be penalized for taking GO.

 

[amnesiajune]

Because there's no DRL long? There will be improved GO service at Agincourt, at least a full decade before the DRL reaches Sheppard. Outside of transitfan forums there's really not been substantial discussion on a DRL reaching Sheppard.

The problem is that nobody will go more than a short distance in the wrong direction for their transit trips. And if redirecting passengers to the Stouffville Line is your goal, then an LRT does it better, since the trip to Don Mills takes longer and an extra transfer is thrown into the trip.

 

[sixrings]

I can't imagine many ideally like the short Sheppard subway line then a linear transfer to lrt. The question is do we want to throw good money after bad so some people feel it's fair.

@kEiThZ does t believe drl long is being talked abouts t seriously. I think it's gaining momentum with how many reports are saying it needs to be longer to relieve yonge. For the sake of argument let's pretend it does t have traction. Wouldn't the money be better spent getting the drl to Sheppard not only for yonge but for Scarborough riders who commute downtown. Maybe we should extend Sheppard to Victoria Park and then make the drl go up Victoria Park instead.

 

[DB9]

Unfair yes. But you are focusing too much on the Political charades, which have many elements to get a rise out of both supporters and more important opposition. IMO Residents here have 3 major underlying issues as it pertains to Sheppard and its is all about percieved "fairness"

1. Watching the subway stub stop at the border of North York for decades and having resident see the high end condos exploding around major stop. (And then you want to add an addition transfer?)
2. The RT has a separate technology connecting to the main system and was perceived as a failure for many reasons. Make no mistake the perception is not good.
3. Neglect of doing nothing for decades. It affects us all but it has ticked off residents when combined with 1 & 2

I understand you points but this is what it is. The subway will help some, the LRT would help some and to some extent both are positive and negative depending on distance of travel and where your headed, whether the extra transfer impacts you (elderly, parents with kids, disabled etc). I see the benefits to extending transit further, but I also don't agree with the design of a short subway stub to LRT. It really is dumb and I get why people don't support it.

This whole cry of "fairness" is a political charade itself. This is what frustrates me the most about the local politics. It screams of ROFO populism that has no basis in reality. It's the same charade as collecting "development fees" to build a free subway. I've had plenty of relatives tell me that ROFO will get that "free subway" built, even though it would literally mean tens of thousands of condos being built to pay for it. The "Sheppard Subway Action Committee" group also promised the same nonsense when they were canvassing in my parents' neighbourhood.

1. First of all, there's only a few "high end" condos, and they're mostly concentrated between Bayview and Yonge, where it's literally one stop from the Yonge Line. Even then, it's because that area is one of the most Tony neighbourhoods in Toronto. The condos being built at Fariview Mall definitely are not "high end". Second, even without the firm commitment of LRT, condo applications are now sprouting like weeds east of Vic Park. Once RER comes into operation, Scarborough residents will prioritize easy access to the Stouffville line stations. The LRT can easily meet that objective, and reach more areas of Scarborough (e.g. Malvern/Morningside) for a lower cost. Ideally, the Sheppard stubway should also be converted to LRT, so that it can be extended west to connect with Downsview.

2. Again the perception is politics driven, and is not grounded in reality. Cities in Europe and Asia have successfully integrated their LRT and subway systems, why can't Toronto? If Crosstown succeeds, it throws that perception out the window.

3. Neglect is bad, but the subway is not the pancea. If anything, it could be a costly blackhole that starves the 416 of other valuable transit investments. As I've said before, Scarborough's archilles heel is its incredibly slow and poor transit connections with the region's economic and employment hubs.

 

[OneCity]

This whole cry of "fairness" is a political charade itself. This is what frustrates me the most about the local politics. It screams of ROFO populism that has no basis in reality. It's the same charade as collecting "development fees" to build a free subway. I've had plenty of relatives tell me that ROFO will get that "free subway" built, even though it would literally mean tens of thousands of condos being built to pay for it.

1. First of all, there's only a few "high end" condos, and they're mostly concentrated between Bayview and Yonge, where it's literally one stop from the Yonge Line. Even then, it's because that area is one of the most Tony neighbourhoods in Toronto. The condos being built at Fariview Mall definitely are not "high end". Second, even without the firm commitment of LRT, condo applications are now sprouting like weeds east of Vic Park. Once RER comes into operation, Scarborough residents will prioritize easy access to the Stouffville line stations. The LRT can easily meet that objective, and reach more areas of Scarborough (e.g. Malvern/Morningside) for a lower cost. Ideally, the Sheppard stubway should also be converted to LRT, so that it can be extended west to connect with Downsview.

2. Again the perception is politics driven, and is not grounded in reality. Cities in Europe and Asia have successfully integrated their LRT and subway systems, why can't Toronto? If Crosstown succeeds, it throws that perception out the window.

3. Neglect is bad, but the subway is not the pancea. If anything, it could be a costly blackhole that starves Scarborough of other valuable transit investments. As I've said before, Scarborough's archilles heel is its incredibly slow and poor transit connections with the region's economic and employment hubs.

I agree 95%. Like I said it is what is. Just my view on the overall situation. The LRT is never coming back in its old state, if outside politicians try it will only fuel the subway that much more.

Just like when many posters will still going one last year in the Scarborough RT thread talking LRT and posted often that I dont think it was worth while. My view was don't waste you time on the old plan. It was beyond done politically and by voter support. We either need to improve the LRT's integration or accept the subway and start critiquing before its too late. That view was perceived most of the time as me saying LRT sucks. But it is what it is in this sensitive climate. The media is still promoting the 7 stop as if its might still happen, I think that make some outsiders believe it actually does have hope. I really don't see it that way at all.

I don't want to see the same mistake on Sheppard if we can still improve the connection in a more economical way as there is much more time here to review all options than the RT-SSE. I highly doubt the stubway to LRT is ever going to be tabled by any Politician looking for votes in this area. If LRT has any chance is without the transfer.

 

[DB9]

I agree 95%. Like I said it is what is. Just my view on the overall situation. The LRT is never coming back in its old state, if outside politicians try it will only fuel the subway that much more.

Just like when many posters will still going one last year in the Scarborough RT thread talking LRT and posted often that I dont think it was worth while. My view was don't waste you time on the old plan. Its beyond done Politically and what could be supported. You either need to improve the LRT ior accept the subway and that's what it is. That view was perceived most of the time as me saying LRT sucks. But it is what it is in this sensitive climate. I don't want to see the same mistake on Sheppard if we can still improve the connection in a more economical way as there is much more time here

If anything, there's going to be inertia for years to come, and if anything ever bears fruit in the future, it will probably come back in the form of a LRT line. Which is unfortunate because that area really needs higher order transit asap.

 

[OneCity]

If anything, there's going to be inertia for years to come, and if anything ever bears fruit in the future, it will probably come back in the form of a LRT line. Which is unfortunate because that area really needs higher order transit asap.

Ya TBH unfortunately It could be ugly again. The Politics are now out of the bag for anyone to use and the Province closed up shop immediately when they recognized this. Its the next SSE in the pipeline and we see how this turned out. So I certainly wouldn't bet on LRT whatsoever, but who knows, as you say unfortunate delay is the only certainty. Atleast this one was rejected early enough to have some dialogue and discussions to avoid what both side know happened with the SSE. Subway loop is my bet for the final outcome as the SSE may only strengthen that idea and the complete loop it is fairly well received in Scarborough. But I would never bet on when anything will be built because I think it will be at the back of the cue for sure.

 

[Rainforest]

Thread poll or irl poll?

I'll try to create two thread polls, later today. One about the most desirable next step on Sheppard East (more options than just subway vs LRT), and another one on the priority of Sheppard east vs other projects in the city.

 

[Rainforest]

At the same time the Sheppard Subway was built, the 510 Spadina was also introduced. Both lines are 5 kilometres in length; both have identical ridership numbers. The differences: 510 Spadina is now overcapacity, while Sheppard operates at a fraction of its capacity. Spadina is expected to see huge gains in ridership (once we have enough LRVs to meeet demand), while Sheppard has remained stagnant for more than half a decade, even while Toronto's population booms. Spadina $150 Million and Sheppard cost $1 Billion. Sheppard connects to the failed North York Centre, while Spadina connects to the fastest growing residential and commercial districts in the country (despite minimal infrastructure investments in those areas).

I want to live in the alternate reality where that $1 Billion was spent building a Spadina subway line (mind that I'd never support building a Spadina Subway because that's a really, really dumb idea, when we could be building the DRL).

Let's not forget that they have identical number of boardings per day, but the Sheppard line has much higher peak ridership and does several times more (passenger X km traveled). The Sheppard line releases a legion of buses that would have to carry the riders from Don Mills to Yonge otherwise.

The 510 streetcar has a very high number of boardings, but most of the riders travel a short distance and don't stay for the whole length of the route.

This is not to say 510 streetcar isn't useful (it is very useful), nor to say that the Sheppard line needs to be be extended in the near future (I'm reluctant to support the capital expense).

I just want to highlight that the existing Sheppard line has its purpose.

 

[sixrings]

I'll try to create two thread polls, later today. One about the most desirable next step on Sheppard East (more options than just subway vs LRT), and another one on the priority of Sheppard east vs other projects in the city.

Thank you