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Rob Ford's Toronto

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mrtinfoilsocket said:
But why does one have to "declare a state of emergency" to do the "more" of which you speak. The two aren't linked. Declaring an emergency doesn't magically help anybody or change anything from my understanding.

The lack of "more" might very well be caused by crappy management and a poorly planned response - but it's not because the Mayor didn't "declare a state of emergency". (Although ultimately he's still to blame)

The media spent yesterday trying to pin this on Ford. They tried to nail down exactly what was NOT HAPPENING or being made more difficult due to Ford's reluctance to declare an emergency. In the end they didn't really come up with anything and the conclusion generally seemed to be it would just be a formality at this point.

Of more concern to me was that according to (the media's) sources the Mayor was out of contact with staff through much of Sunday morning and was only briefed minutes before the press conference. THAT'S the real scandal here.
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Yea, it is now to late to make a difference, but I wonder if the people that still wont have power tomorrow, might have had power today if *someone* had gotten out ahead of this a couple of days ago.
 
DeathSilver said:
You are probably right. If one were to be called it would have had to be done earlier. Now things are looking like they are not getting worst, so perhaps it is not needed. If they do, for example the wind picking up, snow, it is mistake to not have called one. Love it that the Mayor has postponed the next update to tomorrow at 11AM when the coldest night is upon Toronto. I guess the big guy wants to enjoy his Xmas since his power is back on.
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Exactly. No point calling one now. Should have been done earlier.

It seems that Ford/Hydro post here because they, like some people here didn't think this "catastrophe" was that big of a deal.
 
TheKingEast said:
State of Emergency:

“the city is no longer able to meet its own needs and has exhausted its resources.”

well?
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Well what? I didn't say that so top being ridiculous. Your original post was "Lulz at extra reinforcements not changing anything. As if the city didn't bumble through this whole thing."

Never did I say that additional resources wouldn't help. What I did say is that those additional resources have nothing to do with declaring an emergency and I stand by that. The province is fully committed to assistance. Do you actually believe that somewhere there's a garage full of provincially funded power trucks and crews standing around playing angry birds on their smartphones... ready to go... but they're not because Ford hasn't "declared an emergency".

Every person in authority is now saying that any declaration is just a formality and that it changes NOTHING on the ground. So I guess I either believe them... or I believe some random anonymous person on the internet.
 
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-manager-says-not-currently-necessary-to-declare-state-of-emergency-1.1605793

"The province has indicated that all available resources will be provided regardless of the declaration of an emergency," Pennachetti said in a recent update distributed to councillors. The province is working with the city's Emergency Operations Centre to provide forestry crews and fuel for backup generators. "At the operational level, the City is working with the Province and a formal declaration of emergency will not change the situation," the update said.

Deputy city manager John Livey refuted media reports that staff had advised the mayor to call an emergency but he had declined. Livey said that on Sunday staff had discussed the possibility of declaring one if the situation got worse, but city officials agreed one was not necessary at this point.

Livey said that a declaration would only be warranted if the city were in a situation like New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, when it might be necessary to suspend civil liberties to forcibly evacuate residents. One might also be needed if the city was unable to cope with recovery costs, like Lac Mégantic, QC was after that town's recent railway disaster.

According to a city spokesperson, modern Toronto has never declared an official emergency.
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Note the part about Toronto never before declaring an official emergency. Are we going to blame those Mayors as well?

Look, I'm not defending Mayor Ford - I think he's a disgusting human being, an incompetent buffoon generally and wholly and completely unfit for office. I just don't think this "emergency declaration" is something worth going on and on about and it's making us look a little foolish. As I said before the real scandal is that nobody could find the guy for the first half of Sunday.
 
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mrtinfoilsocket said:
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-manager-says-not-currently-necessary-to-declare-state-of-emergency-1.1605793



Note the part about Toronto never before declaring an official emergency. Are we going to blame those Mayors as well?

Look, I'm not defending Mayor Ford - I think he's a disgusting human being, an incompetent buffoon generally and wholly and completely unfit for office. I just don't think this "emergency declaration" is something worth going on and on about and it's making us look a little foolish.
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What does it matter that Toronto has never declared a state of emergency before?

You know what makes us look a little foolish? The city being brought to its knees over some freezing rain.
 
We still have no power along most of the Bluffs. Last night I stayed at a client's house and had a friend over so she could warm up but 15 min in, off went the power and it hasn't returned. This IS a fucking emergency. I'm so angry right now. I'm at another client's right now who has power so I'm charging my phone here since it went out last night.
 
TheKingEast said:
What does it matter that Toronto has never declared a state of emergency before?

You know what makes us look a little foolish? The city being brought to its knees over some freezing rain.
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It matters because you're jumping all over the mayor we hate for not declaring an emergency... while at the same time a bunch of mayors we don't hate (even like) have presided over very serious events/weather disasters/power outages and also NOT DECLARED AN EMERGENCY. The reason? It doesn't actually help fix stuff - particularly when the province is already providing all available resources and the two levels of government are already working together.
 
TheKingEast said:
Yep. Just really pissed off. I was unlucky enough to be rushed to the hospital that day in July, too. It wasn't fun.

If we do experience a true catastrophe I have no faith in the decision makers. I will be prepared for the next "emergency".
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Several years ago I had a conversation with a municipal emergency planning person, who at the time was also taking a course in emergency planning, so presumably had up-to-date ideas and info. The conversation was VERY revealing. Her idea was that people with resources, friends, family, etc would be able to just leave town for a few days if an emergency hit, so her only responsibility would be isolated/marginalized/poor people who would be stuck in the city. This is a totally stupid strategy but I now get the impression that it's not just her, this is how emergency planners think.

The book A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit has some interesting accounts of how various communities responded to natural disasters (generally really well, everyone pitches in) and the contrast with official/government responses (incompetent, insensitive, sometimes downright corrupt). The book came out before Sandy but the Sandy experience is a great example. It's seriously worth getting to know your neighbours, in case SHTF.

I'd say - and I don't know why the City doesn't recommend this - neighbours should have annual emergency planning check-ins, on, say, a block-by-block or floor-by-floor basis. Just go over some basics of who could do/provide what, who has special needs, run through a few scenarios, remind people to have some basic supplies on hand.
 
The other thing about declaring a state of emergency. It seems to effectively transfer council's power to one single person. (In this case Kelly)

Again from the earlier article:
https://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=196043

The emergency declaration would also place Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly firmly in control of the situation. As a result of the council vote last month, Kelly, not Ford, would be able to exercise all authority normally delegated to council for up to 30 days after the emergency declaration.
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Democratically that's huge... If you're going to strip the elected council of it's decision making ability and give absolute control of the city to one individual there better be a very, very good reason for it with actual, tangible benefits.
 
While a state of emergency isn't really needed, the circumstances should warrant increased mobilization in terms of the opportunity cost of leaving parts of the city shut down for this long.

One of the giant issues being overlooked right now is the profits that some companies without electricty are potentially missing out on. These are likely not big companies being affected, they're smaller ones located in the strip malls and industrial parks, retailers, small companies, mom and pop stores. And remember, this is Christmas, so many retailers typically recoup their losses at this time of year.

If things don't return to normal within the next day, I'd imagine we may be seeing an increase in bankruptcies in the coming New Year.
 
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TOperson said:
Several years ago I had a conversation with a municipal emergency planning person, who at the time was also taking a course in emergency planning, so presumably had up-to-date ideas and info. The conversation was VERY revealing. Her idea was that people with resources, friends, family, etc would be able to just leave town for a few days if an emergency hit, so her only responsibility would be isolated/marginalized/poor people who would be stuck in the city. This is a totally stupid strategy but I now get the impression that it's not just her, this is how emergency planners think.

The book A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit has some interesting accounts of how various communities responded to natural disasters (generally really well, everyone pitches in) and the contrast with official/government responses (incompetent, insensitive, sometimes downright corrupt). The book came out before Sandy but the Sandy experience is a great example. It's seriously worth getting to know your neighbours, in case SHTF.

I'd say - and I don't know why the City doesn't recommend this - neighbours should have annual emergency planning check-ins, on, say, a block-by-block or floor-by-floor basis. Just go over some basics of who could do/provide what, who has special needs, run through a few scenarios, remind people to have some basic supplies on hand.
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LOL. Seems like getting the hell out is the best thing to do. My eyes are wide open, though. I've been sleeping for some time.
 
jje1000 said:
While a state of emergency isn't really needed, the circumstances should warrant increased mobilization in terms of the opportunity cost of leaving parts of the city shut down for this long.

One of the giant issues being overlooked right now is the profits that some companies without electricty are potentially missing out on. These are likely not big companies being affected, they're smaller ones located in the strip malls and industrial parks, retailers, small companies, mom and pop stores. And remember, this is Christmas, so many retailers typically recoup their losses at this time of year.

If things don't return to normal within the next day, I'd imagine we may be seeing an increase in bankruptcies in the coming New Year.
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No doubt some stores will be closing up shop.

Did anyone pass by Fairview Mall? The place looked like a dump with people sitting and lying on the ground charging their laptops and phone. Literally had to step over people just to get around. Longos (Bayview/Leslie) was PACKED (it never is). I can only imagine what would happen if we had a real catastrophe. Are we ready?
 
DeathSilver said:
Glad you are OK. Perhaps some of the 300k-500k citizens don't feel the same? You seem like a selfish SOB.
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Funny, the city and hydro are being derided for not preparing for an event we knew was coming well ahead of time, but somehow people are exempt from preparing. You'd think the fact that we live in a country with a significant number of months in the cold sprung up on us.

But the really selfish SOB's are the people politicizing an issue that would have no measurable effect, was not recommended by city staff, whom presumably are the experts, and wasn't pursued by any other Mayor in the region facing the same storm. But it's so much easier to whine about people needing help, while sitting online and bitching about the Mayor to be contrary despite him doing the right thing for once.
 
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