Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[T-Squared]

Novea Res Urbis - October 1, 2008, GTA Edition

Growth and money concerns
The $50 billion Regional Transportation Plan and Investment
Strategy unveiled by Metrolinx last week, met with criticism
at Friday’s board meeting, as members charged the
plan neglected future growth centres and expressed concern
over the fact that financial tools intended to fund the
plan’s implementation beyond 2015 were left out.
Though the draft plan was approved by the board and
will be released for consultation with stakeholders and the
public, board member and Durham Region chair Roger
Anderson expressed concern that the plan did not sufficiently
address Durham and the growth that it anticipates
over the next decades.
“This is a good document, but it’s not a complete document,â€
Anderson told the board on Friday.
“I think they’re missing a lot,†Anderson said in an interview
with NRU. “I think they’re missing 70,000 people in
Seaton.â€
Though a gateway transportation hub is planned for the
Seaton area in Metrolinx’s 25-year outlook, Anderson does
not think it is sufficient.
“I can tell you in 15 years there will probably be 50-
70,000 people living in Seaton with no buses,†Anderson
said. “If they get used to driving their car, they’re going to
continue driving their car. They’ve got to deal with this in a more timely fashion. I don’t want to be at the
end of the 30-year plan.â€
However, board member and former
Toronto chief planner Paul Bedford said that
the plan successfully connects transit and land
use planning, and seeks to encourage intensification
at major transit stops.
“If you want transit as part of this regional
transportation network, you better deliver on
the land use intensification or you’re not going
to get it,†Bedford told NRU. He added that
land value-based property tax systems, such as
are found in parts of Australia, encourage
intensification by taxing the land value, rather
than the market value of the property as a whole.
Bedford did note that the Oshawa GO
Station, located on the waterfront, is not in an
ideal location as the city’s revitalization is largely
taking place in the downtown area, further north.
Bedford does view the plan as a key document
in encouraging intensified urban development across
the region and feels that it should have the authority granted
by provincial legislation, such as the Places to Grow Act.
Bedford believes that the transportation plan and investment
strategy should work in tandem with Places to Grow to
ensure that good planning decisions are made.
“All of that has to be in line so it trumps and supersedes
a municipal council that decides to do something different,
or an OMB panel that approves a Wal-Mart at a GO
Station,†Bedford said.
“That stuff can’t happen anymore. There’s no point in
doing all this if the OMB can still make independent decisions
that approve suburban big box stuff at transit stations.
It has to conform.â€
However, Bedford wants Metrolinx to consider future
funding options now, rather than waiting until 2013. While
the province has committed $11.5 billion in funding, and it
is hoped that the federal government will add another $6
billion to that, any tools with which to raise the remaining
$32.5 billion are not discussed in the investment strategy.
“I understand why the province doesn’t want to open up
the world to new revenue sources right now, given the economy,
but there’s no way we should be waiting until 2013 to
even talk about it,†Bedford said. “We should start a process
of dialogue with the people. If people really want that
regional transportation plan…they’re going to have to bite
the bullet on those tools.â€
Bedford said that the discussion needs to start now to
avoid a worst case scenario, in which the province’s contribution
is entirely spent and there is no more money to fund
the plan.

 

[jeicow]

403/eastgate/eglinton BRT ?
what is the deal with that thing, anyway?

From the way you worded your original post, I assumed you were eliminating it from the equation. And it's still in the design stages from the last I heard. Station designs for the the first phase were released (I believe) last winter with hopes of shovels in the ground during the next year or twwo.

 

[TOareaFan]

From the way you worded your original post, I assumed you were eliminating it from the equation. And it's still in the design stages from the last I heard. Station designs for the the first phase were released (I believe) last winter with hopes of shovels in the ground during the next year or twwo.

From GO's accessibility plan:

The Mississauga BRT represents GO Transit’s first tangible segment
of the GO BRT. As such, GO Transit’s BRT staff have dedicated the
majority of their time on this joint project with the City of Mississauga
to build full BRT infrastructure covering a 18 km, 12-station span. GO
Transit is responsible for the western segment (BRT West) along
Highway 403 from Winston Churchill Boulevard to Erin Mills Parkway,
while Mississauga is responsible for the eastern segment (BRT East)
from the City Centre to Renforth Drive, just south of Lester B.
Pearson International Airport.

The Preliminary Design for GO BRT West is nearly complete and
detailed design is to commence in Fall, 2008. This will lead to an
expected construction start in 2009/10 with an overall project
completion date for BRT West and East in 2012/2013.

 

[owen]

From the way you worded your original post, I assumed you were eliminating it from the equation. And it's still in the design stages from the last I heard. Station designs for the the first phase were released (I believe) last winter with hopes of shovels in the ground during the next year or twwo.

i think that was someone else, as that was my first post in this thread.
i'd ask more questions about the BRT, but that probably warrants its own thread.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well it's really just shorthand for NE Scarborough, which seems to be getting an enormously disproportionate amount of rapid transit planning for its population and density thanks to Metrolinx's big rubber stamp. Especially when there are far simpler and more effective options (extension of the BD line + LRT as you mention).

Even if we talk about NE Scarborough, those routes are certainly needed. Now of course, there is debate if LRT is needed along those routes....

1) Extending the BD line does not really serve NE Scarborough at all. It simply increases capacity on the current STC-Kennedy corridor. That's needed of course, cause the RT is packed to brim even outside of rush hour. The extension of the RT has been on the books for years. Currently a whole melange of buses head from Malvern to STC. Extending the RT to MTC would create hub in Malvern, resulting in the re-routing of buses for all of NE Scarborough (not just Malvern).I would argue that the SRT extension can be adequately done with LRT. However, if the eventual intention is to take the line into Markham than the higher capacity vehicles will certainly be required.

2) The Sheppard LRT can certainly be replaced with a curbside bus lane past McCowan. However, this would make travel along Sheppard onerous since you would create two transfers along Sheppard itself: transfer for LRT and transfer for Yonge line. There are several connecting routes along the way, and major pockets of new and dense construction at Markham, Morningside and Meadowvale. And the route will likely also connect the zoo, and possibly Pickering. There is also the possibility of running the route south on Port Union to the GO station. As Scarberian points out between Markham and Morningside, there ain't much but I would disagree that there is no potential to generate ridership past Morningside....but you have go through a few blocks of backyards to get there... The ideal solution would have been to finish the Sheppard subway and build BRT after McCowan. However, I suspect that the TTC feels that this would be much more expensive than implementing LRT along the rest of Sheppard.

3) Lastly, the so called Scarborough-Malvern will really serve south Scarborough which sorely needs higher ordered transit. Consider the communities that it serves along Kingston and along Morningside: Scarborough village, Guildwood, West Hill and most importantly U of T Scarborough. Service to Malvern on this line as I mentioned earlier is merely an after-thought.Few would dispute that LRT along Kingston makes sense. What's more, Kingston is ripe for densification. The motels and strip malls are being replaced with wonderful high rise condos. There is already too much traffic on that strip and overcrowded buses. If we are going to build along Kingston until at least Morningside, then it certainly makes sense to take it North till UTS. The last extension to MTC is debatable. But since MTC will be a hub, there is an argument to be made that the network should be completed till MTC.

I concede that maybe it's a bit knee jerk as a Mississaugan, but every network map I see (even the fantasy ones!) always seems so east-heavy. Nothing against Malvern in particular.

There's a couple of reasons here....
1) NE Scarborough is still developing and a lot that new development is medium and high density; townhouses and condos. Markham and Sheppard is a prime example. I would also challenge the assertion that Scarborough is less dense than 'sauga. Other than Hurontario, there are very few dense corridors. The only disagreement I have on this front is that LRT should have been considered for Finch or Steeles instead of Sheppard. But that'll happen in time.

2) As others have pointed out too, in the west the rail lines reach the edge of the 416. In the east this is not the case. Not only does this shaft riders in Scarborough, this is also bad for the entire eastern GTA. Mississauga residents can't say they have it as bad as those who live in Pickering. At the end of all this, Mississaugans will have access to the BD line only a few km away. Even most of Scarborough which pays the taxes that support that line won't have that privilege. Look at a map and see how far south Kennedy is, in relation to the rest of Scaborough. For that matter check out how far south STC is in relation to NE Scarborough. And STC is the current hub for the north-east.

3) There is the issue of transit use. I don't know too many people in 'sauga who rely on transit for anything other than daily commuting. This is certainly not the case in Scarborough. While the transit modal split for Scarborough is not as high as other parts of Toronto, I am willing to bet that it's a lot higher than Mississauga. For that reason, transit investment here is warranted....it generates better returns in Scarborough than Mississauga.

4) Lastly, we are willing to pay for it. There is nothing stopping Mississauaga from building its own LRT lines. If Mississaugans are upset at the lack of rail, they have nobody to fault but themselves. The 416 is different. At a consultation on the RT last year, Scarborough councilors bitched out the TTC for not extending the BD line. Subways are a politically charged issue in Scarborough. They didn't get the BD line but they got a promise to extend the RT. By contrast, Mississauga councilors would rather brag about the low business tax rates than build higher ordered transit. But hey, that's who you guys voted for.... I wouldn't worry though. Mississauga is well represented in the Metrolinx plans. Just hope that Hazel and company actually have the gumption to raise taxes to pay for those plans instead of hiding behind their cries against federal and provincial unfairness.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Keith, most RT riders are not coming from or going to Malvern on buses. Just look at the numbers: 23% use Midland, Ellesmere or McCowan, another 21% use Lawrence East (most via the Lawrence East bus) and 63% use STC...this includes beginnings and ends of trips, and if perhaps 22,000 of the daily 28,000 STC riders actually arrive by bus, we also know that only, at most, half of these people have taken bus routes from Malvern.

Since a maximum of 25% of RT riders are coming from or going to Malvern, very few people will benefit from the RT extension (and this is before factoring in who would benefit from a simpler and cheaper subway extension to STC). $1.7B is being spent on, literally, 10,000 rides a day. Ridership from Malvern to STC could quadruple and the RT extension would still move fewer people than the Finch East bus...anything more than regular buses is unjustifiable overkill.

In the Metrolinx plan, you can take a slice through part of Scarborough around Markham Road and that slice will pass through 11 east/west rapid transit routes in a span of about 16km. Eleven routes. It's absurd and it is a mathematical certainty that the only one that will be used to its full potential (i.e., the same standard of overcrowding that is the definition of success for a subway line) is the Lakeshore GO line. Half of the other 10 could be cut and no one would notice or care...other than the neighbourhoods - the entire cities - that would then benefit from redirecting these billions of dollars.

 

[kEiThZ]

Since a maximum of 25% of RT riders are coming from or going to Malvern, very few people will benefit from the RT extension (and this is before factoring in who would benefit from a simpler and cheaper subway extension to STC). $1.7B is being spent on, literally, 10,000 rides a day. Ridership from Malvern to STC could quadruple and the RT extension would still move fewer people than the Finch East bus...anything more than regular buses is unjustifiable overkill.

I disagree that the extension is not required for a few reasons. Once MTC becomes a bus hub, many routes will terminate at MTC. The creation of that hub will re-order the routes in the North-East. But even other than that, are you disputing that Markham Road (gets a connection to the RT), a growing Centennial college, the Milner business park, and the developments at Markham and Sheppard don't need some form of higher ordered transit? Buses are going to be overwhelmed as all that develops. What about the potential to run the extension into Markham eventually? I can agree with a downgrade to LRT, and I certainly agree with the extension of the BD to STC, but I think the SRT extension in some form is justified. It will change travel patterns and I am confident the ridership numbers will follow.

In the Metrolinx plan, you can take a slice through part of Scarborough around Markham Road and that slice will pass through 11 east/west rapid transit routes in a span of about 16km. Eleven routes. It's absurd and it is a mathematical certainty that the only one that will be used to its full potential (i.e., the same standard of overcrowding that is the definition of success for a subway line) is the Lakeshore GO line. Half of the other 10 could be cut and no one would notice or care...other than the neighbourhoods - the entire cities - that would then benefit from redirecting these billions of dollars.

You are cherry picking here. Yes many of those lines come across Markham road (which is hardly the heart of Malvern), but its not like all those routes are stopping there or are being put into service simply to service Malvern. That's like railing against spending on the 401 because it passes Markham road on its way to Pickering. Yes there are many corridors, but only about half of those are servicing Malvern. Moreover, on lines like Sheppard, Scarborough-Malvern (they should rename that), and the North East GO line, service to Malvern is incidental or an after-thought. I find it rather extreme to say that billions are being spent just for Malvern.

I would certainly have supported alternative solutions such as a BD extension and LRT in lieu of the SRT extension. And I would agree that the Sheppard East LRT and Scarborough-Malvern LRT could be replaced with BRT. But I disagree that the SRT extension is not required. It will serve as the backbone for transit in the northeast. Rather than ditching the extension, what should be ditched is the other two LRTs.

 

[Dan416]

CC

I challenge your idea to extend the Eglinton line to Eglinton and Hurontario.

1) Your straight cross-border extension would make it very difficult to build an airport hub at Pearson as envisioned by Metrolinx and the TTC.

Pearson should be served by GO. The people mover can connect to an Eglinton LRT/HRT/ICTS whatever Eglinton ends up being.

Eglinton might not be particularly high density right now, but with Mississauga built out now, there's going to be a lot of development of the inner city. That includes both Dundas East and Eglinton East.

That being said Transit City does propose building a Mississauga spur to the Eglinton line. Perhaps citizens in your city should start pitching councillors to come up with the cash to extend the Eglinton LRT down Eglinton towards Square One. At around 13 km in all, and likely to require some tunneling or bridging it's going to be pricey though.

Eglinton is a wide street. It can definitely support an LRT at grade in Mississauga.

An alternate route is running LRT along Burnamthorpe from Hurontario till Islington Station, about 12 km, though this would require relocating the best terminal to the south side of Square One. I wonder if there is development along Burnamthorpe to justify the price tag, though it might be justifiable from a network point of view. I also wonder how this would operate, having a TTC surface route operating in 'sauga or conversely if MT was operating this, then what about the portion that would operate in Toronto?

Burnhamthorpe won't be getting any higher order transit. It's a residential street, and it's not got space for intensification. Dundas should have an LRT or HRT from Kipling to Hurontario. Period. It would likely be operated by MT unless it was an HRT extension of B-D to Hurontario.

All in all, I think it'll be quite challenging to work with Mississauga on a TTC subway or LRT. First there is the cost of construction. Next there is the issue of revenue and service outside of jurisdiction, etc. For this to happen, Mississauga would really have to step up with hundreds of millions (maybe a billion) dollars and be willing to swallow their pride and let the TTC run the show. I am skeptical that Mississaugans would even support such an extension if that meant a significant increase in taxes...which would be likely.

It's quite a different case up north, Vaughan practically fashioned a new city centre around the subway stop. And it's also willing to step up with cash, let the TTC take all the revenue, and let the TTC dictate the rules. That's co-operation.

Ready to take off your rose-colored glasses yet? Vaughan hasn't fashioned anything around anything. That's all WAY in the future. Mississauga has needs now, and it's not creating them out of thin air. Yes Mississauga built a city centre out in the middle of nowhere, but it's been working on it for decades. Look at MCC and maybe that's what VCC will look like in 3 decades. I don't know where you get the idea that VCC deserves a subway more than MCC.

I'm looking at things from a ridership point of view, not based on politics and what municipality is willing to blow some money on something or other.

I have the VCC extension on my map for the sake of completeness, but because I support it. I do support the RHC extension though. I also support ridding ourselves of Bombardier's ICTS cancer once and for all.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No, the RT extension is not needed. It will have laughably low ridership. Buses are more than capable of handling the demand...as I've said, they are capable of handling quadruple the demand. Regular buses, too, let alone a very modest BRT line (which is a perfect fit for the area and could be run from STC along Progress to the empty rail corridor to Malvern for a pittance). A streetcar could be built but it's not needed any more than buses are...it'd be a purely political/ideological decision.

And, no, I'm not cherry picking...building eleven rapid transit lines to serve an extremely limited number of riders east of Markham Road is a disgusting waste of money. Why are 10,000 people in the east worth more than 100,000 people in the west? Every group of 10,000 riders east of Markham Road is getting their very own rapid transit line at the expense of people downtown or in the entire western half of the GTA!

 

[kEiThZ]

Pearson should be served by GO.

I strongly agree. I think we need better GO service there instead of Blue 22.

The people mover can connect to an Eglinton LRT/HRT/ICTS whatever Eglinton ends up being.

I was merely pointing out that if Metrolinx and the TTC envision replacing the people mover with rail stops at the terminals like Heathrow, than you vision becomes problematic. Of course, if the idea is to funnel the people mover into the rail hub than it's okay. But as I understand, it's unclear if the cable car people mover can reach that far....

Eglinton might not be particularly high density right now, but with Mississauga built out now, there's going to be a lot of development of the inner city. That includes both Dundas East and Eglinton East.

Something about low flying airplanes kind of restricts development in that area, all the more so with the additional runways Pearson has on the books. But you have a case for Dundas East. I strongly agree that Dundas deserves some form of RT. And its not like Eglinton get's nothing. They are getting the BRT.

Eglinton is a wide street. It can definitely support an LRT at grade in Mississauga.

I don't dispute that....

Burnhamthorpe won't be getting any higher order transit. It's a residential street, and it's not got space for intensification. Dundas should have an LRT or HRT from Kipling to Hurontario. Period. It would likely be operated by MT unless it was an HRT extension of B-D to Hurontario.

I don't disagree with you on any of this. I have pointed out that Dundas would be a great E-W corridor. But a B-D extension to Hurontario would be overkill and quite expensive if there is MT BRT/LRT in place from Kipling to Hurontario.

Ready to take off your rose-colored glasses yet? Vaughan hasn't fashioned anything around anything. That's all WAY in the future.

Depends on your definition of WAY into the future. By the time the subway line is done in 7-8 years, development will already have started around the VCC. This is really only a question of timing here. They got theirs a little early that's all. What's wrong with that?

Mississauga has needs now, and it's not creating them out of thin air.

I am not disputing the fact that Mississauga has transit needs. But they are mostly local. Are there many Mississaugans clamouring to have a direct line from MCC to Runnymede station? Mississauga would be best served by BRT/LRT on Hurontario and Dundas. Coupled with BRT on Eglinton, Mississauga will be quite well served and have good connections with GO and TTC.

Yes Mississauga built a city centre out in the middle of nowhere, but it's been working on it for decades. Look at MCC and maybe that's what VCC will look like in 3 decades. I don't know where you get the idea that VCC deserves a subway more than MCC.

It's not so much a question of who deserves what, it's a matter of what is more easily built and will get ridership. For the price of that extension to MCC (which would be several times that of the Sheppard line or the VCC extension from Steeles), could it generate the same proportional ridership? I doubt it. Why would anyone from Mississauga ride the subway for an hour when GO will get you downtown in a third of the time. Instead of a subway to the MCC, BRT/LRT along Hurontario and Dundas would provide significantly improved local service and good connections to the BD line. Also, as I pointed out earlier, it's much easier to build that extension now, while the York extension is underway then to wait when the area has developed and the York extension is already running (service disruption, rising costs of construction, etc).

I'm looking at things from a ridership point of view, not based on politics and what municipality is willing to blow some money on something or other.

Fair enough. But it's not ridership that pays for transit lines. It's municipalities led by politicians. As long as Mississauga city council has other priorities that's not going to change. And I would argue that most Mississaugans are equally apathetic about getting a subway line. Given Hazel's influence, if she was interested, this certainly would have been completed by now! Vaughan happen to prioritize a TTC stop above everything else. That's just how life works.

I have the VCC extension on my map for the sake of completeness, but because I support it. I do support the RHC extension though. I also support ridding ourselves of Bombardier's ICTS cancer once and for all.

I certainly agree with you on these points....particularly the last one...

 

[kEiThZ]

No, the RT extension is not needed. It will have laughably low ridership. Buses are more than capable of handling the demand...as I've said, they are capable of handling quadruple the demand. Regular buses, too, let alone a very modest BRT line (which is a perfect fit for the area and could be run from STC along Progress to the empty rail corridor to Malvern for a pittance).

Hadn't thought of it. I guess part of the blinders are that Toronto has a very poor tradition of BRT, it's usually regular bus or light rail. But you raise a good point. BRT would certainly be adequate upto Malvern. But again, this does not take into account that the hub at MTC will also serve riders from the south end of Markham and allow the TTC to extend the SRT into Markham. All their pretty pictures say that's their eventual goal. If we were talking about just serving Malvern, I might be willing to settle for BRT.

A streetcar could be built but it's not needed any more than buses are...it'd be a purely political/ideological decision.

Are the costs that different between streetcars and LRT? I understood that a lot of the cost goes into purchasing corridor land and construction of the rail bed and the boarding platforms. If we are going for streetcars, I would think that the cost of LRT would be marginal....I could be wrong.

And, no, I'm not cherry picking...building eleven rapid transit lines to serve an extremely limited number of riders east of Markham Road is a disgusting waste of money. Why are 10,000 people in the east worth more than 100,000 people in the west? Every group of 10,000 riders east of Markham Road is getting their very own rapid transit line at the expense of people downtown or in the entire western half of the GTA!

How is it 11 lines for Malvern? I count four lines in the 15 year plan that impact Malvern: Havelock and Seaton GO lines, the RT extension, and the Sheppard East line. And 2 lines for the 25 year plan: the Scarboroug-Malvern LRT and the Steeles/Taunton BRT. And as I have pointed out before those lines are in no way meant just for Malvern. Steeles/Taunton for example targets Seaton and Oshawa. The SM LRT is more geared towards Kingston Road and UTS. The Havelock and Seaton GO lines are geared towards Markham East and Seaton respectively. And the Sheppard East line services Malvern's periphery on the way to Port Union and the Rouge. The only line that we could say is aimed at Malvern is the RT extension and even that services some major stops along the way: Centennial college, Milner Business Court and the condos, townhouses, cultural centre and plaza at Sheppard and Markham. And again that does not even include potential to extend into Markham.

The Transit City map looks rather even to me. Factoring out the E-W lines which serve the entire city, Scarborough looks to be on par with Etobicoke. It's pledging to build lines every where. For example the Finch West and Jane lines will serve the west end quite well. I am not aware of more lines that they need in that corner of the city. Scarborough gets the RT extension and the SM LRT as its exclusive lines. So how is the west end getting screwed at Scarborough's expense?

Looking at the 905, would you disagree with Durham councillors who want to fashion transit friendly communities in Seaton? Or do you disagree with improved rail service on Lakeshore? Or the need for BRT along Kingston Road? And many of these are places that are scheduled to grow. The entire Eastern GTA outside the 416 is being served by two BRT routes and two GO Rail lines. I would hardly count a BRT on Brock Road (Seaton-Pickering) or the Oshawa downtown-GO connector as significant transit investments. Just cause the lines are on the map, does not mean that they all cost the same. When the numbers come out, I think we'll see that there's significantly more money being spent in the western GTA than the east.

Lastly, the investment is needed, easterners already experience traffic headaches to get downtown with the Don Valley Parkinglot. And with Miller's intention to demolish the Gardiner/DVP link, driving into downtown is going to become a lot harder. The least planners can do is provide the transit to overcome these problems. It's not like there's a large movement on the other side to take demolish the QEW/Gardiner or the 427/Gardiner links. And don't forget that these are places that are scheduled to grow. What happens if all those people are driving? Transit will facilitate compact dense communities. Skip out on transit and you'll get sprawl. For once, can't we just aim to build with foresight instead of trying to play catch up?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Hadn't thought of it. I guess part of the blinders are that Toronto has a very poor tradition of BRT, it's usually regular bus or light rail. But you raise a good point. BRT would certainly be adequate upto Malvern. But again, this does not take into account that the hub at MTC will also serve riders from the south end of Markham and allow the TTC to extend the SRT into Markham. All their pretty pictures say that's their eventual goal. If we were talking about just serving Malvern, I might be willing to settle for BRT.

No, there won't be more than a few hundred people a day transferring from Markham. And there won't be more than a few hundred a day transferring from Durham Region. Why would these people ride into Malvern when there's new GO lines and busways on their doorstep that can take them downtown or across the city in a fraction the time? There won't ever be enough riders NE of STC to warrant a rapid transit line...even an LRT line would be overkill.

How is it 11 lines?

Count them yourself...11 lines to serve people east of Markham Road, most of which will compete for a limited pool of riders. Or, since the Midtown GO line splits into two branches, it's 10 lines to serve people east of McCowan (which is still wild overkill).

How is that true? The Transit City map looks rather even to me.

That's because you live in Malvern. All of the yellow lines that cross Markham Road will probably be rendered utterly superfluous once the GO lines are improved (and this includes a superfluous GO branch into the greenbelt). The eastern part of the Metrolinx plan is exceedingly poorly thought out, with zero concern for the cumulative purposes, effects, and riderships of all these lines. The rest of the GTA fares better in the plan (and the relative sparsity of projects in the north and west is just part of the reason).

 

[kEiThZ]

No, there won't be more than a few hundred people a day transferring from Markham. And there won't be more than a few hundred a day transferring from Durham Region. Why would these people ride into Malvern when there's new GO lines and busways on their doorstep that can take them downtown or across the city in a fraction the time? There won't ever be enough riders NE of STC to warrant a rapid transit line...even an LRT line would be overkill.

Fare enough. I'd love to hear the TTC's reasoning on why they feel differently.

That's because you live in Malvern. All of the yellow lines that cross Markham Road will probably be rendered utterly superfluous once the GO lines are improved (and this includes a superfluous GO branch into the greenbelt). The eastern part of the Metrolinx plan is exceedingly poorly thought out, with zero concern for the cumulative purposes, effects, and riderships of all these lines. The rest of the GTA fares better in the plan (and the relative sparsity of projects in the north and west is just part of the reason).

I would argue that there is marginal cost in running BRT from the end of Steeles down Taunton to Oshawa. Likewise, for BRT along Kingston Rd. B/LRT along Brock road would fulfill a major local function similar to the Hurontario RT. Would you not build that line or the GO connector in Oshawa (hardly worth of a line item in Metrolinx's plan). I would argue that the cost for much of this fairly marginal given that the Steeles, Kingston Road, Sheppard lines all run till the edge of the 416 anyway. I will reserve judgment until I see the budget. I am fairly certain that far more will be spent in the West than the East....given that some of the western lines are good LRT candidates...compared to a BRT future for the East.So which ones do you disagree with? I am curious to know your plan for the eleven lines....a good topic for a metrolinx thread...

 

[Rainforest]

All of the yellow lines that cross Markham Road will probably be rendered utterly superfluous once the GO lines are improved ...

Even Eglinton / Kingston Rd LRT and Lawrence East LRT? I thought south-eastern Scarborough has decent density counts.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The GO bus along the 401 is ok and the Midtown GO line (just the southern branch, the one) is good...the rest are all dubious. Even a "cheap" busway along Steeles/Taunton is a huge waste of money because there's nobody nearby but squirrels for a good 25km...there's literally a hundred better places for a busway - or for the money and attention - to go.

Even Eglinton / Kingston Rd LRT and Lawrence East LRT? I thought south-eastern Scarborough has decent density counts.

There is no line proposed for Lawrence East (the "Hwy 2" line seems to go along Ellesmere, though...with so many silly yellow lines crammed into one area, it's hard to tell on the map). The Scarborough-Malvern line crosses the Lakeshore line twice, then crosses two busways, an LRT, and the RT extension, before terminating at a GO station on another GO line...this line's ridership will be highest immediately east of Kennedy station (due to the overlapping bus routes) but will plummet as it goes NE (if the Hwy 2 line goes along Ellesmere, this will take care of almost all the UTSC traffic). All of these intervening lines will leave the Scarborough-Malvern line with perhaps a few hundred riders per hour NE of Eglinton & Markham.