Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[kEiThZ]

The GO bus along the 401 is ok and the Midtown GO line (just the southern branch, the one) is good...the rest are all dubious. Even a "cheap" busway along Steeles/Taunton is a huge waste of money because there's nobody nearby but squirrels for a good 25km...there's literally a hundred better places for a busway - or for the money and attention - to go.

Let's not forget the quarter million or so tax paying TTC patrons east of McCowan that deserve at least some shot at getting around the neighbourhood with a bus or getting to downtown in something less than an hour. I don't see why they are less deserving than any of the other taxpayers in this city. I know you will cite the multitude of lines going through. Fair enough, but until there is real fare and service integration, Scarborough residents have to rely on the TTC (4 planned TTC projects...out of the 11 ML total) and Durham residents on GO. I think its rather unfair to have Scarborough residents pay taxes that support the TTC and expect them to use GO transit (just cause its close by) at higher fares. If integration improves in the future than perhaps the argument can be made that commuters in the northeast should be relying on GO not on the TTC to get downtown. Till then though, my argument stands.

Fair enough on Taunton. You disagree with increased service on Lakeshore too? And how would you service UTS if you can the SM LRT? If you feel that no LRT is warranted past McCowan, than I certainly would say the same goes for LRT or a Sheppard subway for most of the length from Vic Park to McCowan. There's hardly enough density to justify subways. A busway along there would also be just as effective. After all, if the pockets of development at Markham and Sheppard or all new new development between Morningside and Meadowvale does not warrant some improved transit (BRT minimum), one can hardly justify spending billions on a subway for places that seem quite well serviced by bus right now and are not destined to take on more development. But the case for extension of the Sheppard line is based on the need to complete the network. If we are going to spend billions to complete the network purely for the benefit of North York and a small corridor of northwestern Scarborough residents, its only fair that the rest of Scarborough get equal access. Indeed, most riders west of McCowan make it to downtown in less time than anybody from the northeast of Scarborough. How much marginal time savings will they accrue from HRT or LRT? And is that worth billions?

Personally, I think Metrolinx is being smart. They have laid out a roadmap for 25 years and beyond. Planning for these lines will allow development to be transit focused along these corridors and cities can start planning for these lines in their budgets, planning documents, etc. Let's not forget that this is a blueprint for decades. With the exception of the few quick wins, most of these lines aren't coming in for at least half a decade. These plans are at least a declaration that we will build transit in those areas as the GTA develops. Sure there's only squirrels on Taunton now....but in a quarter century, things will be different.

Metrolinx also does a good job at planning for a true pan-GTA network in 25 years, one that will allow travel patterns like Markham to Oshawa or Brampton to Pickering. That's the kind of network that will finally convince many that transit is reliable and accessible enough to let people ditch their cars. Connecting the dots may seem unimportant to transit geeks, but without the promise a network that allows full access across the GTA I highly doubt that many will ditch their cars. Kudos to metrolinx for recognizing that.

IMO the west and the north are well represented on the Metrolinx plan. I certainly would not begrudge them any of those lines. If we should not build any lines except the GO bus line along 401 and the Seaton GO line, what would you do to service the rest of the Eastern GTA? I am curious to hear your plan for all the cash saved, since you want to can 9 of 11 lines east of Markham road.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You disagree with increased service on Lakeshore too? And how would you service UTS if you can the SM LRT? If you feel that no LRT is warranted past McCowan, than I certainly would say the same goes for LRT or a Sheppard subway for most of the length from Vic Park to McCowan. There's hardly enough density to justify subways. A busway along there would also be just as effective. After all, if the pockets of development at Markham and Sheppard or all new new development between Morningside and Meadowvale does not warrant some improved transit (BRT minimum), one can hardly justify spending billions on a subway for places that seem quite well serviced by bus right now and are not destined to take on more development. Indeed, most riders west of McCowan make it to downtown in less time than anybody from the northeast of Scarborough.

No, I clearly don't disagree with increased service on the Lakeshore GO...I didn't bother mentioning it specifically because, obviously, it already exists, unlike the other lines save for the Stouffville line to Stouffville. Morningside is not the best route to serve UTSC - Ellesmere from STC is. If you think Sheppard is quite well served by buses right now, then you're proving my point that the entirety of the GTA east of McCowan will never warrant and cannot support any new rapid transit lines other than the Midtown GO line (or Eglinton as far as Markham, or Viva to Cornell, I guess...Markham is a pretty hard edge beyond which nothing should be extended, let alone new lines be run out there). These new lines will make the Sheppard subway on a Sunday night look like the Yamanote line.

Metrolinx put near zero thought into the eastern part of the GTA...they just rubber stamped everything they could get their hands on, even though the lines conflict with each other, duplicate service, and fight for the same small pool of riders. As if people from Durham are going to travel into Scarborough to get on a busway or an LRT when a GO line parallels their entire trip. Why are greenbelt raccoons in Locust Hill being given two lines to choose from? If there's a speedy GO bus along the 401 from Pickering to STC, who's going to take the parallel yellow line? These eastern lines cater to tiny and purely theoretical niche ridership bases, even as enormous swaths of Brampton get nothing and giant voids are left in far more populous areas. Where's the improvements for Dixie or Kipling or Lawrence or Wilson? I guess they don't have enough local gang shootings to qualify for priority funding.

The plan is a pretty epic failure for Scarborough (they didn't even bother to include the Stouffville line for express rail), with billions of dollars spent on the wrong projects that will serve fewer people and fail to support existing and proposed developments. Right now getting from Malvern to downtown isn't a quick trip, but the Midtown GO line will let them do it in about 30 minutes, door to door. Apparently, all the other millions of people in the GTA can just take a local feeder bus to a rapid transit station (assuming such buses exist, run at decent frequencies, or aren't comically overcrowded or painfully slow), but every person in sprawlly east Scarborough needs a one-seat ride from their front door to every other point in the city.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think what is being forgotten in these discussions is the timeframe. 15-25 years is a long time. And I think in reality its going to be 20-40 years before a lot of these lines get built. Toronto and the GTA is going to be a very, very different place. That's why I think it's kind of useless to be drawing lines on a map based on today's ridership without looking at what corridors can be densified or what nodes need to be connected. For example, I am guessing the Taunton line was put in to offer rapid connection between the eastern and the northern GTA. I don't see what's so bad about that. There's squirrels there now. In 20-40 years who knows.

No, I clearly don't disagree with increased service on the Lakeshore GO...I didn't bother mentioning it specifically because, obviously, it already exists...

That's one of the 11 lines you pointed out earlier that was not worthwhile. This is what I mean...it's hard to argue that every one of those lines is a significant investment. Many of those lines are upgrades. And some new corridors like the Oshawa connector or Pickering - Seaton will simply involve painting stripes on a road....hardly worthy of yelling out that the eastern GTA is eating the entire Metrolinx budget.

If you think Sheppard is quite well served by buses right now, then you're proving my point that the entirety of the GTA east of McCowan will never warrant and cannot support any new rapid transit lines other than the Midtown GO line (or Eglinton as far as Markham, or Viva to Cornell, I guess...Markham is a pretty hard edge beyond which nothing should be extended, let alone new lines be run out there).

My point was...that the lines are being built for more than just the purpose of carrying riders. If that was the only purpose, it's hard to make a case for subway anywhere in Scarborough and particularly along Sheppard....when Finch or Steeles might turn out to be busier in the long run. We are building the Sheppard line to finish a network. It's a smart decision. Likewise, in a quarter century, we should be building line that complete a network in the eastern GTA. Keep in mind, that one of Metrolinx's metrics is proximity to rapid transit lines. I strongly agree that this is likely a key driver for transit use. And that metric requires the agency to build a pan-GTA network, not just one that looks at today's densities.

Right now getting from Malvern to downtown isn't a quick trip, but the Midtown GO line will let them do it in about 30 minutes, door to door.

Like I pointed out on GO before. It's rather unfair to expect taxpayers in Scarborough, who fund the TTC to ride GO for adequate service, at higher fares. That's fundamentally wrong. Would we expect that from riders anywhere else in the 416? The TTC has a responsibility to provide good transit service to all of the city.

Metrolinx put near zero thought into the eastern part of the GTA...they just rubber stamped everything they could get their hands on, even though the lines conflict with each other, duplicate service, and fight for the same small pool of riders.

That's why its a draft. I am sure it'll get fleshed out in time. And as their models get more sophisticated they'll able to tell which line will compete with each other.

As if people from Durham are going to travel into Scarborough to get on a busway or an LRT when a GO line parallels their entire trip.

Why not? In 20-40 years Scarborough Centre could prove to be quite a node of employment. It's quite likely that there will be ridership from the eastern GTA to there. Likewise for the busway and LRT. Those will serve riders coming into Scarborough. The GO lines are for those heading downtown. Granted, the lines can be better planned out....and they probably will in time.

The plan is a pretty epic failure for Scarborough (they didn't even bother to include the Stouffville line for express rail), with billions of dollars spent on the wrong projects that will serve fewer people and fail to support existing and proposed developments.

You deem it a failure for spending too much in Scarborough. I would argue that what it should be aiming for is spending the same amount elsewhere...ie move that DRL up to the 15 year time frame. But I somehow feel that when the numbers come through, things will look different. It doesn't cost much to run GO bus on the 401....calling that a Metrolinx is investment is rather funny.

Apparently, all the other millions of people in the GTA can just take a local feeder bus to a rapid transit station (assuming such buses exist, run at decent frequencies, or aren't comically overcrowded or painfully slow), but every person in sprawlly east Scarborough needs a one-seat ride from their front door to every other point in the city.

I hardly think, that Scarborough was being given special treatment by Metrolinx. From the looks of it, most of Metrolinx is not targeted at the 416. It's meant at providing service to region as a whole and ensuring connectivity within the 905 and between the 905 and the 416. Most of the lines servicing Scarborough are meant to provide service to the eastern GTA like I pointed out before. And many will turn out to be quite cheap to build....ie Markham-401-Pickering bus service. Does the rest of the city need investment? Sure. Maybe Metrolinx has missed some priorities. But I hardly doubt that shooting the entire eastern GTA in the foot is going magically result in Kipling or Lawrence getting priority treatment. The better question is why the TTC didn't feel that these routes were priority enough to raise them with Metrolinx.

 

[jswag]

Funny how some here are claiming the east GTA is getting far too much service in this plan, but Roger Anderson, Durham Region chair and member of the Metrolinx board, was complaining at the lack of attention paid to Durham.

Not to mention the fact that most of the projects in Scarborough were already planned by the TTC and Metrolinx just included them in their plan.

 

[Anth]

Like I pointed out on GO before. It's rather unfair to expect taxpayers in Scarborough, who fund the TTC to ride GO for adequate service, at higher fares. That's fundamentally wrong. Would we expect that from riders anywhere else in the 416? The TTC has a responsibility to provide good transit service to all of the city.

This is why transit needs to be planned, funded, and operated regionally. Infrastructure spending should be based on things like demand, projected growth and connectivity, not on perceived fairness. Everyone should be able to use the routes that make the most sense for them without having to worry about double fares and which irrelevant regional jurisdiction they contribute their taxes to.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we all fund both the TTC and GO?

 

[kEiThZ]

This is why transit needs to be planned, funded, and operated regionally. Infrastructure spending should be based on things like demand, projected growth and connectivity, not on perceived fairness. Everyone should be able to use the routes that make the most sense for them without having to worry about double fares and which irrelevant regional jurisdiction they contribute their taxes to.

Agreed. But that's not the case today.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we all fund both the TTC and GO?

Yes and no. If we are talking generic support from provincial and federal funds, yes. If we are talking local ratepayer support, NO. In the latter case, only those in the 416 contribute to the TTC.

 

[Anth]

Agreed. But that's not the case today.

I was naively hoping Metrolinx would fill the role, but it's not looking good and honestly the draft RTP we waited two years for has really diminished what little optimism I had. So far they've only confirmed our suspicions about having a board full of municipal politicians.

Maybe I can take refuge in the belief that this is all somehow part of a grand backroom political scheme to actually build a rational transit network in the end. Fingers crossed.

 

[DavidH]

Funny how some here are claiming the east GTA is getting far too much service in this plan, but Roger Anderson, Durham Region chair and member of the Metrolinx board, was complaining at the lack of attention paid to Durham.

Anderson is attempting to get the province to pay all the bills. For example, see his comments about service to Seaton not waiting for 25 years. So DRT can't run buses to Seaton on its own without Metrolinx approving it?

 

[DavidH]

I was naively hoping Metrolinx would fill the role, but it's not looking good and honestly the draft RTP we waited two years for has really diminished what little optimism I had. So far they've only confirmed our suspicions about having a board full of municipal politicians.

Sigh. Agreed completely. There is some good stuff in the RTP but it is not what it should have been. They spent all this time encouraging us to "be bold" and then they come back with a watered down mess.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I think what is being forgotten in these discussions is the timeframe. 15-25 years is a long time. And I think in reality its going to be 20-40 years before a lot of these lines get built. Toronto and the GTA is going to be a very, very different place. That's why I think it's kind of useless to be drawing lines on a map based on today's ridership without looking at what corridors can be densified or what nodes need to be connected. For example, I am guessing the Taunton line was put in to offer rapid connection between the eastern and the northern GTA. I don't see what's so bad about that. There's squirrels there now. In 20-40 years who knows.

No, the NE won't be very different in 25 years, though it will have a few more sprawlly subdivisions. The Taunton line will run through a long stretch of greenbelt, Viva will run out to a new GO line in the greenbelt, etc. It's right there on the maps...zero future development! Do you really think houses along Sheppard and Morningside are going to be replaced by skyscrapers?

That's one of the 11 lines you pointed out earlier that was not worthwhile. This is what I mean...it's hard to argue that every one of those lines is a significant investment. Many of those lines are upgrades. And some new corridors like the Oshawa connector or Pickering - Seaton will simply involve painting stripes on a road....hardly worthy of yelling out that the eastern GTA is eating the entire Metrolinx budget.

I said the Lakeshore was the most worthwhile line...how could I not considering it already exists! Even painting lines on Steeles east of Markham Road is a waste of money.

Like I pointed out on GO before. It's rather unfair to expect taxpayers in Scarborough, who fund the TTC to ride GO for adequate service, at higher fares. That's fundamentally wrong. Would we expect that from riders anywhere else in the 416? The TTC has a responsibility to provide good transit service to all of the city.

You seriously think they'll spend $50B and 25 years and not integrate fares in some way? And that in case they don't, people in the east need multiple redundant transit options?

That's why its a draft. I am sure it'll get fleshed out in time. And as their models get more sophisticated they'll able to tell which line will compete with each other.

You don't need sophisticated models to see that none of the lines between the Lakeshore GO and Stouffville GO will ever be busy. Between the Midtown GO line and assorted other LRTs and busways, who's going to be taking the RT extension? The Morningside line will carry a few hundred people per hour for most of its length.

Why not? In 20-40 years Scarborough Centre could prove to be quite a node of employment. It's quite likely that there will be ridership from the eastern GTA to there. Likewise for the busway and LRT. Those will serve riders coming into Scarborough. The GO lines are for those heading downtown. Granted, the lines can be better planned out....and they probably will in time.

The GO lines will stop in Scarborough, too. If lines like the Midtown GO and Lakeshore are for taking people downtown, then what are all the other lines for? Subtract the downtown commuters and none of the yellow lines proposed for the east are viable save for a few GO buses running along the 401.

You deem it a failure for spending too much in Scarborough. I would argue that what it should be aiming for is spending the same amount elsewhere...ie move that DRL up to the 15 year time frame. But I somehow feel that when the numbers come through, things will look different. It doesn't cost much to run GO bus on the 401....calling that a Metrolinx is investment is rather funny.

It's a failure because it wastes money in the east, not because it spends too much there. Some of the lines in the east are worse because of lines in other parts of the city that aren't in the plan but I wouldn't want billions wasted in York Region or Etobicoke just for the sake of parity...that's what Metrolinx was supposed to avoid. We already have some of the numbers...almost a billion for the Morningside streetcar, $1.7B for the RT, etc. It still costs millions of dollars to build busways and buy and staff buses.

I hardly think, that Scarborough was being given special treatment by Metrolinx. From the looks of it, most of Metrolinx is not targeted at the 416. It's meant at providing service to region as a whole and ensuring connectivity within the 905 and between the 905 and the 416. Most of the lines servicing Scarborough are meant to provide service to the eastern GTA like I pointed out before. And many will turn out to be quite cheap to build....ie Markham-401-Pickering bus service. Does the rest of the city need investment? Sure. Maybe Metrolinx has missed some priorities. But I hardly doubt that shooting the entire eastern GTA in the foot is going magically result in Kipling or Lawrence getting priority treatment. The better question is why the TTC didn't feel that these routes were priority enough to raise them with Metrolinx.

Malvern gets special attention because a few young black men shoot each other there every year...same with Jane & Finch, which is also getting two Transfer City lines. Maybe, if the city pretended that it was basing these transit projects on ridership or land use or solid planning instead of on investing billions of transit dollars in priority neighbourhoods in a futile attempt to solve social problems, then these plans wouldn't be so offensive to common sense and to people living in non-priority areas that will not benefit from them. Yet, even the first map of 'evidence' Metrolinx presents to us in The Big Move is a map of social need (and it's an extremely erroneous map, too).

GO trains and a few express/rocket bus routes (not even full busways) are more than sufficient for the east. 10 or 11 east/west rapid transit lines serving a 16km stretch beyond Markham Road is extreme overkill - Peel Region west of the airport will be getting 7, despite far higher existing and future population bases, higher transit usage, more employment, a greater land area, worse traffic, etc., etc.

Funny how some here are claiming the east GTA is getting far too much service in this plan, but Roger Anderson, Durham Region chair and member of the Metrolinx board, was complaining at the lack of attention paid to Durham.

Not to mention the fact that most of the projects in Scarborough were already planned by the TTC and Metrolinx just included them in their plan.

I said money is being wasted in the east and that Metrolinx rubber stamped some already planned and useless projects instead of starting from scratch and building a real regional transit system.

 

[TOareaFan]

Funny how some here are claiming the east GTA is getting far too much service in this plan, but Roger Anderson, Durham Region chair and member of the Metrolinx board, was complaining at the lack of attention paid to Durham.

Not to mention the fact that most of the projects in Scarborough were already planned by the TTC and Metrolinx just included them in their plan.

It is his job, as Region Chair, to represent the 561,258 (2006 Census) people in all of Durham. So, as Region Chair, he believes that all of his existing "plans" should be rubber stamped (as they have been) and Metrolinx should come up with some additional ones.

Unfortunately for Peel Region's 1,159,405 people (in particular the 433,806 of us that live in Brampton) our interests at Metrolinx are represented by the Mayor of Mississauga and none of Brampton's new plans were "rubber stamped" but the old ones (queen Acceleride and Main Acceleride and more GO) that had been previously announced and funded....were reannounced.

Mr. Anderson can blab on all he wants about how sometime in the future (25+ years) there will be 50,000 people in Seaton.......but that equals about 2 years worth of population growth in Brampton - before it was designated as a "place to grow".

By claiming his region has been unfairly dealt with by this plan, Mr. Anderson is doing one of his jobs, at the expense of the other!!!!!

 

[Anth]

10 or 11 east/west rapid transit lines serving a 16km stretch beyond Markham Road is extreme overkill - Peel Region west of the airport will be getting 7, despite far higher existing and future population bases, higher transit usage, more employment, a greater land area, worse traffic, etc., etc.

Quoted for truth and this is what I always have a hard time wrapping my head around.

Unfortunately for Peel Region's 1,159,405 people (in particular the 433,806 of us that live in Brampton) our interests at Metrolinx are represented by the Mayor of Mississauga and none of Brampton's new plans were "rubber stamped" but the old ones (queen Acceleride and Main Acceleride and more GO) that had been previously announced and funded....were reannounced.

Well it's not like being represented by Hazel is doing Mississauga any favours either. The draft RTP sees an electrified Milton line going only to Cooksville in 25 years! Is that not astounding considering how perfectly the line cuts through pretty much all of Mississauga's key areas outside Port Credit and MCC? Even MCC didn't get anything other than Hurontario, which may not even be LRT in the end.

 

[TOareaFan]

Well it's not like being represented by Hazel is doing Mississauga any favours either. The draft RTP sees an electrified Milton line going only to Cooksville in 25 years! Is that not astounding considering how perfectly the line cuts through pretty much all of Mississauga's key areas outside Port Credit and MCC? Even MCC didn't get anything other than Hurontario, which may not even be LRT in the end.

That is true....I was more (as most do) looking at it from my personal perspective.....I always thought that it was bizarre that some areas were represented by regional chairs and some by mayors (not necessarily of their own cities). There should have been a way to treat regions as "transit zones".....so Durham which has a regional transportation agency representing its 500k+ people would have had a representative as would mississauga and Brampton...just made more sense.

Looking at it from an overall Peel Region perspective (as your post suggests) you have to wonder if she paid much attention or if that one day has convinced her that biking to work is the only way!!

 

[kEiThZ]

Do you really think houses along Sheppard and Morningside are going to be replaced by skyscrapers?

Why not? The northern stretches of Yonge still had detached houses on them and strip malls not all that long ago. Put in a line anywhere in this city and I am willing there is some enterprising developer who will find a way to put up a high rise. I guess I am the optimistic type

You seriously think they'll spend $50B and 25 years and not integrate fares in some way? And that in case they don't, people in the east need multiple redundant transit options?

Look at TTC's reluctance on full Presto implmentation. Integration with GO and increased service on GO lines would change so many things....turning GO stations into mini-hubs. Sadly, I think it'll be a while before we see both fare integration and the level of service integration to pull that off.

If there's integration, then certainly many lines can be dropped....Steeles Taunton comes to mind. Anyway we should discuss each line. I am curious for your stance on each of the 11 lines. I agree not all of them are required. I am not quite sure which ones to can. I could still see several that make sense...Oshawa connector, Brock Road busway, etc.

Between the Midtown GO line and assorted other LRTs and busways, who's going to be taking the RT extension?

All those who aren't heading downtown....I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the RT extension. Thankfully for me, unless several city councillors wish to suffer cruel fates at the polls, it's unlikely that would be dropped.

The Morningside line will carry a few hundred people per hour for most of its length.

I have already explained my understanding of this. What we have here is an LRT that largely services Kingston Road. It's likely that servicing U of T from kingston was a fairly marginal cost and good bang for the buck. Do you disagree on LRT for Kingston? If you do, I guess there's no case for the route. I agree though that it's pointless to extend it north to Malvern.

The GO lines will stop in Scarborough, too. If lines like the Midtown GO and Lakeshore are for taking people downtown, then what are all the other lines for? Subtract the downtown commuters and none of the yellow lines proposed for the east are viable save for a few GO buses running along the 401.

My understanding was that these lines will probably be GO bus routes. I doubt it'll be more. I don't see the problem in creating a GO bus route from Markham to Pickering in 15 years...there'll probably be enough riders for that by then. If they were to be more than that, I would back you.

Malvern gets special attention because a few young black men shoot each other there every year...same with Jane & Finch, which is also getting two Transfer City lines.

That's rather stereotypical....and offensive. Given that The Star rated Raymond Cho one of the worst councillors in Toronto, I highly doubt that he managed to sway all of the TTC by making the argument for new transit lines based on crime rates. You give no credit to the TTC or the rest of city council who were fighting for their own lines. I am sure they have their reasons and vision for this city.....though they should share that with the rest of us.

...even the first map of 'evidence' Metrolinx presents to us in The Big Move is a map of social need (and it's an extremely erroneous map, too).

Agreed...that threw me too.....

 

[kEiThZ]

Maybe I can take refuge in the belief that this is all somehow part of a grand backroom political scheme to actually build a rational transit network in the end. Fingers crossed.

While I may quibble with Scarberian on some lines (ie...SRT) all in all, I kinda agree that the whole plan lacks vision....and sadly much of that lack of vision is compounding the whole Transit City nightmare....

However, we should take solace in the fact that this is the first real attempt at regional transit. Just the fact that Metrolinx has funds and a staff is probably a huge step. Ultimately, I think the GTA is going to need a region wide agency to manage transit, which will probably lead to a class with Toronto over the TTC at some point. Who knows....maybe someday we'll get a premier who has the guts to just impose an agency with the necessary powers on the region....