Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[drum118]

The depends on the stop spacing of that regional rail. I suspect that Eglinton LRT will carry a substantial amount of Pearson-bound passengers who have no good transfer point to GO.

Speaking of Hurontario corridor, can it justify a subway through Mississauga and perhaps into Brampton? First subway in Mississauga does not have to be a spur off Toronto's system. Hurontario is busier than any single E-W corridor in Mississauga, and has no rail alternatives.

One can say if and when real redevelopment of Hurontario St takes place, a subway would be pushing it with more than 4 cars. BD sees 300'000+ daily riders while Hurontario may see 150,000.

Mextrolinx sees it as a BRT and that is find if you are planning stops in very few places. MT pre-BRT 100's due in 2009 is going to be hard press to provide all day service and fill a 60' in the first place considering a 202 can't do that now for pm service. Unless that bus goes into Sq One or the terminal gets move next to Hurontario, ridership will suck. Anything more than a 12 minute headway will not attract new riders.

A one seat turn over is a waste of resources as well hitting the cost ratio or cost to use it hard on the bottom line.

Instead of building a subway underground, put it above ground as the street is too wide in the first place and would blend in.

We will know in the coming weeks what the real ridership numbers are for 202 and 19 when MT submits a report on the worst 20 routes as well the next 10 routes waiting for more service. We are looking at around 25-30,000 riders daily on 19 now.

 

[kEiThZ]

1) The YYZ has a LINK train that currently connects Terminal 1, Terminal 3, and the Sheraton Gateway Hotel, as well as access to the Reduced Rate Parking Lot at Viscount Station, and the employee parking lot. If the Eglinton LRT is ever extended into Mississauga, that LINK train could be extended down to directly connect with the LRT.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that some of the transit lines (possibly Eglinton) would run directly into the airport...kinda like Heathrow... If we are going to have a hub off-site, then using extending the LINK to the hub is feasible. Though it'd kinda suck to lug baggage just to changes after 3 stops.

2) There are already office buildings between the 401 and Eglinton West, south of the airport. At the moment, they are surrounding by asphalt deserts called "parking lots" (aka: free parking). If those asphalt deserts along Eglinton could be redeveloped as buildings (mixed-use preferred) and they got rid of the free parking, they would be better serviced by a LRT.

I agree that there is potential. What I don't know is if there is political will in Mississauga to spend hundreds of millions on a single line along Eglinton that would effectively serve an area that is currently served by bus. With respect to the Eglinton corridor, it's probably a chicken and egg dilemma. But to the average Mississaugan, I am sure this will seem like a waste of cash. For that same amount for example, Hurontario could have BRT/LRT and/or much of MT's fleet could probably be recapitalized. The opportunity cost is huge.

I actually think there's more potential along a future BD extension or at least LRT down Dundas. Consider the 15 km stretch of Dundas in Mississauga from Renforth till Winston Churchill, it has several small pockets of high density residential and commercial space and a major university campus. Perhaps Mississauga should look into building its E-W transit axis along Dundas with a connection to the BD line....might make CC happy!

 

[MisterF]

Exactly. This is the pointing I am trying to get across to many including CC. Good BRT/LRT and well integrated regional rail is actually far more effective than a subway.

Once GO builds up its regional rail network to a standard worthy of being referred to as regional rail, then the need for subways will substantially diminish. Even in Mississauga I can't fathom why anyone there would want to spend billions in tax dollars for an extension of the BD line or the half a billion for an extension of Eglinton when the most pressing need is for BRT/LRT along Hurontario. Building that line will also connection with GO for much quicker trips to downtown Toronto than any subway.

The other problem that we have right now is integration. Even in the 416, demand for subways would be reduced if GO was integrated with the TTC. Why would anyone heading downtown choose the the subway over GO coming from say NE Scarborough, Port Union, Mimico, Rexdale, etc. if the fares were integrated?

Exactly, and this is one of the big reasons that subways with close stop spacing are ideal for inner city travel, but not for serving far out suburbs. The farther out the subway goes, the less benefit each extension brings. Most of the 905 and even much of the outer 416 would be best served by regional rail (along with LRT and BRT for more local travel or inter-suburb travel on busy corridors) and central Toronto needs a beefed up subway network. Unfortunatly not many people get that, although Metrolinx seems to get it more than the TTC.

 

[TOareaFan]

The depends on the stop spacing of that regional rail. I suspect that Eglinton LRT will carry a substantial amount of Pearson-bound passengers who have no good transfer point to GO.

I am not as up on this stuff as you guys but would it not make sense that the every 15 minute service between Union-Pearson-Brampton would have a stop built at Eglinton and Black Creek....connecting with an Eglinton LRT there? In that way that Union-Pearson-Brampton line would actually draw passengers from Union, B-D (at Bloor) and Eglinton LRT.

 

[TOareaFan]

1) The YYZ has a LINK train that currently connects Terminal 1, Terminal 3, and the Sheraton Gateway Hotel, as well as access to the Reduced Rate Parking Lot at Viscount Station, and the employee parking lot. If the Eglinton LRT is ever extended into Mississauga, that LINK train could be extended down to directly connect with the LRT.

I remember suggesting on these boards that the LINK train be extended to meet the Georgetown GO (@ Woodbine) and some people on here gave me very detailed technical reasons why it could not be extended....can it?

2) There are already office buildings between the 401 and Eglinton West, south of the airport. At the moment, they are surrounding by asphalt deserts called "parking lots" (aka: free parking). If those asphalt deserts along Eglinton could be redeveloped as buildings (mixed-use preferred) and they got rid of the free parking, they would be better serviced by a LRT.

It is a very nice little office park yes....not sure what kind of "mixed use" you had in mind but there will never be residential in there and no buildings taller than what you already see (proximity to aeroporto).

 

[GregWTravels]

I remember suggesting on these boards that the LINK train be extended to meet the Georgetown GO (@ Woodbine) and some people on here gave me very detailed technical reasons why it could not be extended....can it?

The current system, which uses a cable pull system, cannot be extended much beyond the planned additional stop at T1.

However, I believe that somewhere back in the discussion someone found evidence that the system can be reconfigured to run trains not on a cable system, which would allow extension. A quick search and I couldn't find who quoted that. Conversion would probably would be expensive to do.

When I originally read about the airport LINK system on cables and the inability for extensions, it struck me as either very poor planning or a deliberate attempt to ensure that only Blue 22 would be able to provide decent transit links into the airport.

 

[DavidH]

However, I believe that somewhere back in the discussion someone found evidence that the system can be reconfigured to run trains not on a cable system, which would allow extension. A quick search and I couldn't find who quoted that. Conversion would probably would be expensive

I don't have time to research this right now but I remember comments to that effect in the GTAA's 2008 master plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wonder if it's feasible (from a ridership perspective) for Mississauga to have an E-W LRT line along Dundas that connects with the BD line and UTM. It would probably cost about 600 million for the 15km. So they would have two lines....Hurontario N-S and Dundas E-W. IMHO that would meet most of Mississauga's higher order transit needs.

 

[Anth]

Hurontario N-S and Dundas E-W. IMHO that would meet most of Mississauga's higher order transit needs.

Throw in electrified Lakeshore and Milton (but not just to Cooksville in 25 years), then maybe. MCC would still be awkward to access without some sort of diversion or spur, however.

But of course we have to build all those rapid lines to Malvern first.

 

[Rainforest]

I am not as up on this stuff as you guys but would it not make sense that the every 15 minute service between Union-Pearson-Brampton would have a stop built at Eglinton and Black Creek....connecting with an Eglinton LRT there? In that way that Union-Pearson-Brampton line would actually draw passengers from Union, B-D (at Bloor) and Eglinton LRT.

Such a stop would make a lot of sense, but mostly for trips from Etobicoke (LRT) to downtown (GO), or from Brampton (GO) to Yonge/Eglinton and other midtown location (LRT).

If both the GO line and the LRT line go to Pearson, transferring won't make much sense for Pearson-bound passengers. The LRT will get there in 20 - 25 min, the GO train in 10 - 12 min, but additional 10 min will be eaten up by the transfer. So, why bother shuffling luggage just to win 5 minutes.

 

[jeicow]

I wonder if it's feasible (from a ridership perspective) for Mississauga to have an E-W LRT line along Dundas that connects with the BD line and UTM. It would probably cost about 600 million for the 15km. So they would have two lines....Hurontario N-S and Dundas E-W. IMHO that would meet most of Mississauga's higher order transit needs.

There are already plans for LRT from Kipling to Hurontario. I believe the city indicated before the RTP that it would be the priority, though the project got clumped in with #19 "Dundas West- Other Rapid Transit- Kipling to Waterdown" project (15 year plan). However, if you only had Dundas and Hurontario, you fail to provide an E-W link in the north.

 

[TOareaFan]

Such a stop would make a lot of sense, but mostly for trips from Etobicoke (LRT) to downtown (GO), or from Brampton (GO) to Yonge/Eglinton and other midtown location (LRT).

If both the GO line and the LRT line go to Pearson, transferring won't make much sense for Pearson-bound passengers. The LRT will get there in 20 - 25 min, the GO train in 10 - 12 min, but additional 10 min will be eaten up by the transfer. So, why bother shuffling luggage just to win 5 minutes.

I have always thought a stop on that GO line at Eglinton & BlackCreek made sense...it would make even more sense if it meant connecting with another LRT type line on Eglinton......it just makes sense to me that there should be as many interconnections between all of these lines as possible....to allow the greatest amount of travel flexibility would seem the most likely way to get people out of cars and into transit no more "why would I train down to Union if I am going to midtown" excuses for us suburbanites!

 

[kEiThZ]

But of course we have to build all those rapid lines to Malvern first.

As a Malvernite, my only complaint is that those so-called lines to Malvern barely touch Malvern....so I really don't know why we are getting slammed here.

Take the Scarborough-Malvern line, a line meant largely to serve UTS. It's being extended down Morningside, Sheppard and Neilson, to terminate at MTC. Given that additional rail is only required on Neilson and a few km from Sheppard to UTS on Morningside, it's hardly surprising that the line was extended to MTC....it allows for a transfer point from those students who are travelling from the rest of north Scarborough and or points along the sRT extension. I would argue that the line should be routed West on Sheppard and back south to STC...though that's only possible if LRT is used on the SRT extension.

Now look at the Sheppard line....it's not so much targetted at Malvern as it is a cross-town route that happens to transit through the southern edge of Malvern.

The only route that I would argue that is sorely needed is the Scarborough RT and this has been on the books for nearly 2 decades now. I have argued (and written to my councillor on this) that LRT should suffice for the route if the BD line was extended till STC.

In sum, I think the 'lines to Malvern' take on UT is rather simplistic. With the exception of the SRT extension, the other lines are merely transiting through Malvern while targetting the entire North-East corner of Scarborough. Nobody here seems to take issue with the Sheppard line hitting Meadowvale and possibly Port Union.....

 

[owen]

However, if you only had Dundas and Hurontario, you fail to provide an E-W link in the north.

403/eastgate/eglinton BRT ?
what is the deal with that thing, anyway?

 

[Anth]

In sum, I think the 'lines to Malvern' take on UT is rather simplistic. With the exception of the SRT extension, the other lines are merely transiting through Malvern while targetting the entire North-East corner of Scarborough. Nobody here seems to take issue with the Sheppard line hitting Meadowvale and possibly Port Union.....

Well it's really just shorthand for NE Scarborough, which seems to be getting an enormously disproportionate amount of rapid transit planning for its population and density thanks to Metrolinx's big rubber stamp. Especially when there are far simpler and more effective options (extension of the BD line + LRT as you mention).

I concede that maybe it's a bit knee jerk as a Mississaugan, but every network map I see (even the fantasy ones!) always seems so east-heavy. Nothing against Malvern in particular.