Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[scarberiankhatru]

Why not? The northern stretches of Yonge still had detached houses on them and strip malls not all that long ago. Put in a line anywhere in this city and I am willing there is some enterprising developer who will find a way to put up a high rise. I guess I am the optimistic type

That's a bass ackwards way of planning and building a city...ignore most of the dense and busy areas and run billions of dollars of useless transit lines out to nowhere so that less dense and less busy areas may, potentially (there's no guarantee - just look at Glencairn), one day be developed. The city will have to rezone all of Malvern for redevelopment to happen.

Look at TTC's reluctance on full Presto implmentation. Integration with GO and increased service on GO lines would change so many things....turning GO stations into mini-hubs. Sadly, I think it'll be a while before we see both fare integration and the level of service integration to pull that off.

If there's integration, then certainly many lines can be dropped....Steeles Taunton comes to mind. Anyway we should discuss each line. I am curious for your stance on each of the 11 lines. I agree not all of them are required. I am not quite sure which ones to can. I could still see several that make sense...Oshawa connector, Brock Road busway, etc.

I've already talked about the lines...the Steeles/Taunton line can be axed, the Sheppard East LRT should be replaced by a subway extension to STC, the entire Morningside LRT should be axed (run Eglinton over to Markham Road), the SRT should not be extended, the Hwy 2 line is paralleled by the Lakeshore line, the Midtown GO line does not need two branches, Viva does not need to go past Cornell. That leaves the Stouffville and Lakeshore GO lines which already exist, the new Midtown GO line via Morningside & Finch, and GO buses on the 401 (which don't even need a busway). Between all this improved GO service and a few rocket bus routes, no additional service will ever be justified. Again, though, why should we spend billions of dollars on entirely superfluous parallel lines...on the assumption that fares will never be integrated?

All those who aren't heading downtown....I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the RT extension. Thankfully for me, unless several city councillors wish to suffer cruel fates at the polls, it's unlikely that would be dropped.

No, cancelling it will have no effect on the councillors - don't you remember when all the councillors promised a subway and got people excited and then changed their minds? Practically all of the SRT users are heading downtown, which is why a Danforth line extension (a full half billion dollars cheaper than the RT project) makes infinitely more sense. You support multiple transit lines directly from your home in Malvern to every other point in the city, which is understandable.

I have already explained my understanding of this. What we have here is an LRT that largely services Kingston Road. It's likely that servicing U of T from kingston was a fairly marginal cost and good bang for the buck. Do you disagree on LRT for Kingston? If you do, I guess there's no case for the route. I agree though that it's pointless to extend it north to Malvern.

Kingston is an extremely overrated LRT candidate...it's just a pet project. The Scarborough-Malvern LRT is a substantial waste of money. It'll cost almost half a billion dollars to extend it north of Lawrence, and will serve a few hundred riders per hour. Extend Eglinton over to Markham and nix the Morningside half...the part between Markham and Lawrence is debatable.

My understanding was that these lines will probably be GO bus routes. I doubt it'll be more. I don't see the problem in creating a GO bus route from Markham to Pickering in 15 years...there'll probably be enough riders for that by then. If they were to be more than that, I would back you.

Three GO train lines will connect Pickering with the west...and they need additional busways to connect every tiny point with every other tiny point? GO buses already ply these routes - they can add GO buses on the 407.

That's rather stereotypical....and offensive. Given that The Star rated Raymond Cho one of the worst councillors in Toronto, I highly doubt that he managed to sway all of the TTC by making the argument for new transit lines based on crime rates. You give no credit to the TTC or the rest of city council who were fighting for their own lines. I am sure they have their reasons and vision for this city.....though they should share that with the rest of us.

Yes, it's stereotypical, because Malvern is actually a safe middle class area...however, Miller and Giambrone and Metrolinx and others, not Cho or the TTC or transit planners, are basing transit lines on perceived social factors and priority neighbourhoods instead of ridership, and Malvern's reputation will help the eastern GTA be greatly overserved by transit, and directly at the expense of the rest of the city. The SRT extension may help a few thousand people in Malvern, but a cheaper subway extension to STC would help tens of thousands of people along McCowan and Lawrence, not to mention STC itself. Consumers and Agincourt get a Sheppard streetcar so that Malvern can also get a streetcar. Taunton gets at least a busway but what do 40,000+ Finch East riders get? Pickering gets 5 parallel rapid transit connections to Scarborough but huge swaths of the rest of the city get nothing.

edit - people will probably say that Metrolinx' only responsibility was for intermunicipal travel, but Transfer City was the 416's transit plan and it's been adopted by Metrolinx...we're just supposed to assume the local transit that a majority of transit riders will still be riding every day will all be improved? With what money?

 

[DavidH]

Final (ie. formatted) copies of the draft RTP and IS are now available from:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalTransportationPlan.aspx

 

[Dan416]

How Metrolinx and the TTC managed to bungle recent transit plans I really don't know. It's like it was all designed to fail.

 

[drum118]

There are already plans for LRT from Kipling to Hurontario. I believe the city indicated before the RTP that it would be the priority, though the project got clumped in with #19 "Dundas West- Other Rapid Transit- Kipling to Waterdown" project (15 year plan). However, if you only had Dundas and Hurontario, you fail to provide an E-W link in the north.

MoveOntario call for LRT up to Hurontario from Kipling. The city wants to take it west. I support that and it has been in a number of reports I have written on transit in Mississauga as far back as 2002.

Oakville master plan calls for a BRT running every 3 minutes by 2020. Burlington does not have a real plan and leaving it up to Haltion to come up with a plan. Since Oakville and Burlington in the same Region, Dundas would be BRT for the region.

Since Metrolinx is responsible for the over all plan to provide service from Waterdown to Kipling, they Waterdown Mississauga LRT to BRT to provide the seamless ride without transferring. That a mistake and should be LRT from day one.

Since Peel been left out to dry as well not having much money left over after York, Toronto and GO take the lion share, the Rest of the 905 will get the crumbs that are left at the end of the day. Hazel has not done a good job representing not only her city, but Peel as a whole. The planners have.

The same things happens to Hurontario as Mississauga has high ridership to support an LRT today compare to Brampton that cannot support an LRT, a BRT will be use to provide the seamless ride.

Both lines will have higher numbers for ridership than most LRT's lines been plan in the US or are in service today, yet BRT is for front for RTP.

If we want people to use transit, then it has to be LRT from day one as steel wheel attracts more riders than rubber ones.

It's another case where you cannot run parallel service with GO and use better service than they do.

There is no EA for Dundas at this time.

Getting the shovels into the ground by 2009 without some real review is an election card being play to say why (?) should be reelected for another 4 years. Election in 2010 and 2011.

I have a real issue with Hamilton getting an LRT before Mississauga since their routes carry far less riders now or 10 years after it's built. Dundas carries close to 20,000 while Hurontario is over 25,000. With redevelopment of both routes, you can see close to 100,00 riders using them daily.

I have no issue with LRT's in Hamilton as it a given. There is more support for LRT at all levels in the city compare to very low support in Mississauga.

As for the e-w for the north that an issue. The thinking within MT is the 110 will run from Clarkson GO to Pearson by 403/MCC. The only problem is there is no ridership south of UTM or South Common Mall. The 110 is supposed to be a BRT in time, but it has to stop at UTM/SC. There is a need for better connection to the airport, but MT has refused to look at it.

At the same time, we got the GO connection from MCC to RHC by the airport and how does that work with the 110?

 

[drum118]

How Metrolinx and the TTC managed to bungle recent transit plans I really don't know. It's like it was all designed to fail.

Very easy. Lack of vision and money as well a power trip by TTC.

You will never get a plan that will please everyone.

Car folks want all transit underground well others want to see all above. Then there are ppl that want a mixture of everything.

The master at Queen Parks is calling the shots and trying to make everyone happy.

 

[kEiThZ]

Scarberian

My knowledge of the eastern GTA is not as great as yours, so I'll concede on most of those lines. I just don't believe that a tons of resources are being used up for many of these lines.....for example service on the Midtown GO lines, is supposed to be peak only. Anyway, based on current need, I concede that GO bus is best. And my impression was that the yellow lines had no modes attached to them, so many of those yellow routes might indeed turn out to simply be GO bus routes. Could very well be the case for Markham-STC-Pickering or even Steeles/Taunton. I would support these lines based on the timeframe. It's kind of hard to debate about a waste of resources without knowing what's being committed. If these areas are set to house hundreds of thousands of people in 25+ years, then I figure they would be needed. Perhaps that was the thought behind the Steeles/Taunton line? For all we know, they have a single GO bus every hour, in mind....in 25 years. I'd agree thought, that there's no point in spending significant money on these routes now....and that's what the timeframe is there for.

Personally, out of all the TC projects, the only line I would value the most would be the RT extension. I recognize the fact that it won't draw in as many riders to justify the SRT per se. But I do feel its important to service Centennial College, the Milner Business Park and Sheppard and Markham (connecting Sheppard East) with solid LRT service. I agree on the Sheppard East LRT though. I'd rather get the BD line till McCowan...though it'd be good if they could build some kind of bus terminal for the change on Sheppard itself instead of having to transfer at STC. As for Kingston Road, I do believe there is signifcant potential for development here and I do believe that a streetcar would simply add more incentive for that development to come along. It probably offer's the more potential for development than many other corridors in Scarborough....large avenue, good transit connections, plaza and assorted dead spaces that can be developed. Anyway, I guess on these points we'll just have to disagree.

Lines that I do think deserve attention....Finch E, Steeles E, Lawrence, McCowan North (man is that bus ever packed!), and Lawrence. I guess that none of these have the numbers to justify LRT (similar to the argument against Sheppard) so BRT perhaps? It's too bad the city didn't reveal some kind of long term vision statement in conjunction with its Transit City proposals....

Very easy. Lack of vision and money as well a power trip by TTC.

You will never get a plan that will please everyone.

Car folks want all transit underground well others want to see all above. Then there are ppl that want a mixture of everything.

The master at Queen Parks is calling the shots and trying to make everyone happy.

That's the challenge of democracy. It's messy and cumbersome but it works eventually....

What I have always found strange is why transit was never moved up to a regional responsibility everywhere in the GTA. A Peel region transit body for example would have a lot more clout in talks with Metrolinx and the TTC.

 

[Dan416]

Keithz, I think your opinion that the SRT should be extended is just blatantly, ridiculously, and incomprehensibly wrong.

Question: Have you ever ridden the SRT?

I rest my case.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keithz, I think your opinion that the SRT should be extended is just blatantly, ridiculously, and incomprehensibly wrong.

Question: Have you ever ridden the SRT?

I rest my case.

I am not asking for the SRT as is....I've said that repeatedly. We are talking about the extension here. I have said that the BD line should be extended til STC and the proposed SRT extension built with LRT instead. In this context, when I say SRT it's understood that I mean the SRT extension. Sorry, for the confusion if I created any.

Agreed for the current SRT though. Horrible.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree with you, Keithz. On the whole, that extension may be reasonably useful and is certainly worthwhile in the context of such a large transit investment. It should not come at the expense of finishing the Bloor and Sheppard subways. I also wholeheartedly agree about McCowan North. In fact, I think an LRT on McCowan North with a branch east on Finch would be a better route than Markham Road to serve Malvern.

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree with you, Keithz. On the whole, that extension may be reasonably useful and is certainly worthwhile in the context of such a large transit investment. It should not come at the expense of finishing the Bloor and Sheppard subways. I also wholeheartedly agree about McCowan North. In fact, I think an LRT on McCowan North with a branch east on Finch would be a better route than Markham Road to serve Malvern.

I understand Scarberian's disagreements with me on the SRT Extension. But I think the RT extension (using LRT or ART Mk II) has the potential to provide significantly improved transit for a catchment area well beyond Malvern. One of the city's priorities is providing rail service to Centennial...at present that shuttle bus is packed and in overdrive. Crossing two major roads: Markham and then Sheppard, it's likely to draw riders from those lines. And finally you get MTC. I think a bus hub at MTC would be huge. Service across the north east would vastly improve by basing routes on a hub that's much closer than STC. Key among that would be shorter bus travel times, increased frequency from quick turn arounds, etc. That's the reason I support the RT extension. Anyway, not everyone has to agree....that's the beauty of democracy!

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree with all your points. My only opposition to the RT extension as presently constituted is that it requires retaining the RT. The extension of the subway is absolutely essential to providing high quality transit to Scarborough and in particular to its major growth centre and hub.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wonder what happened to Flaherty's pet rail project to Peterborough? It would be a good tool to negotiate money out of the feds, especially with planned service on the Havelock line. Why not offer to extend GO service to Peterborough (peak service like for Barrie) and get some concessions out of the feds (metrolinx funding)? Just a thought.

 

[unimaginative2]

Peterborough really is too far to be comfortably served by a GO Train. It's definitely a VIA Rail route.

The train's still around. It's the Tories' main selling point for keeping the swing riding of Peterborough. They're all talking about it up there.

 

[kEiThZ]

Peterborough really is too far to be comfortably served by a GO Train. It's definitely a VIA Rail route.

The train's still around. It's the Tories' main selling point for keeping the swing riding of Peterborough. They're all talking about it up there.

I dunno, once you start offering peak GO service to Barrie, it's hard to refuse something symbolic to places like Peterborough....1-2 train each way at peak maybe? After all, is VIA really going to run a route that close to Toronto and one that's not on any of its main lines or schedule of service right now?

Another thing I was surprised about is that we have express rail to Hamilton, but no real connection to K-W, Cambridge, etc. I guess all that falls in the Peterborough category..... But if we are going to stick to the greenbelt, then what's with offering service to Barrie?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I understand Scarberian's disagreements with me on the SRT Extension. But I think the RT extension (using LRT or ART Mk II) has the potential to provide significantly improved transit for a catchment area well beyond Malvern. One of the city's priorities is providing rail service to Centennial...at present that shuttle bus is packed and in overdrive. Crossing two major roads: Markham and then Sheppard, it's likely to draw riders from those lines. And finally you get MTC. I think a bus hub at MTC would be huge. Service across the north east would vastly improve by basing routes on a hub that's much closer than STC. Key among that would be shorter bus travel times, increased frequency from quick turn arounds, etc. That's the reason I support the RT extension. Anyway, not everyone has to agree....that's the beauty of democracy!

By "improving" service to Malvern, the RT extension clearly punishes 75% of existing RT riders as it means the RT must be kept. The vast majority of RT riders are going to/from the McCowan/Brimley/Midland/Ellesmere/Lawrence corridors or from STC itself and absolutely none of them benefit in any way from an RT extension that costs almost the same as a Danforth subway extension (and costs hundreds of millions of dollars more than the subway extension when you factor in the renovation and new vehicles).

The area served by the RT extension is also proposed to receive multiple LRT lines, which will eat away at its ridership. A bus terminal at MTC would see very low use since there's barely 20,000 people living beyond MTC. No one from York Region or Durham will use the RT, not when all manner of GO trains and busways are being built for them. The Progress bus may be moderately busy but it is not busier than routes like McCowan, Brimley, Lawrence East, or Highland Creek...in some cases, it is far less busy. Also keep in mind that any theoretical time/comfort benefits from extending the RT could be nullified by retaining the transfer at Kennedy.

If the subway was extended to STC, there'd be less reason to oppose an RT extension to the NE since, aside from very expensive overkill, most RT riders would not be affected by the line. But if the subway was extended, who would support using RT technology in the area when LRT or BRT can more than handle the sparse loads the extension would see and do it for far less money?

Extending the RT along Eglinton makes no sense either as justification for keeping the RT...it will add quite a bit of money to the Eglinton project and offer no benefits over a fully-grade separated LRT.