Metrolinx $55 Billion Plan

[nfitz]

The 905ers decide to screw Toronto and the bulk of projects are pet 905 projects that get moved up to the 15 year timeframe. The province goes along cause that's where the votes are.

I think that this theory falls apart, given that the 416 ridings went more Liberal than the 905 ridings.

 

[MisterF]

I agree with McCallion. This report was just a list of municipal pet projects all in various stages of approval. Why do we need a provincial agency to reannounce them? Waste of money.

The DRL wasn't in any stage of approval before Metrolinx came along. If it takes a provincial agency to announce the subway project that makes the most sense in the GTA, I say bring it on.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think that this theory falls apart, given that the 416 ridings went more Liberal than the 905 ridings.

The 416 wouldn't know self-interest if it bit 'em in the ass. They would have voted Liberal anyway, and every party knows that. I am willing to bet that if it comes to competition for funds, the 416 is going to end up at the bottom of the pile....or we will be doing only those projects which connect to the 905....such as the Vaughan subway.

 

[nfitz]

They would have voted Liberal anyway, and every party knows that.

????? 4 elections previously Liberals only took 9 of 30 of the 416 ridings (by my quick count - might have missed one). There is no certainity that 416 will return Liberals, the the government doesn't deliver for Toronto. I'm in 416 and my riding hasn't gone Liberal since ... well since the late 1960's early 1970s ... it's been NDP for a while, and was Tory when Davis was Premier.

 

[Dan416]

The DRL wasn't in any stage of approval before Metrolinx came along. If it takes a provincial agency to announce the subway project that makes the most sense in the GTA, I say bring it on.

Except it's not really announced. It's pushed back so far into the future to may as well be dead.

 

[ShonTron]

I was personally told by someone very senior at the TTC that 2018 was the year the TTC even aimed to get ground broken on the DRL. That would have put it into the 15 year range. Instead we get York Region (again) getting the lion's share of the money, along with Transfer City. The only surprise was the express rail to Brampton in the 15 year plan, but my guess is that, even though it is nice to see, this is in there as a sop to Brampton, who otherwise wouldn't do well at all under the plan, and perhaps as a joint project with Blue 22, to have both the express trains, plus frequent regional rail, to appease Weston.

Mississauga doesn't even get much new either, besides some Milton improvements, plus the Lakeshore line, which was expected. The 25 year plan, if it ever happens, shouldn't stop that express rail to Cooksville, it should go into MCC, and there's a good case for it to go to Streetsville, or even Meadowvale (near major employment lands) as well.

I really wonder what the purpose of the GTTA/Metrolinx is besides a glorified clearing house sometimes, despite a lofty start and decent public consultations (and a horrible name).

 

[rbt]

I was personally told by someone very senior at the TTC that 2018 was the year the TTC even aimed to get ground broken on the DRL.

10 minute REX service and fare integration on the lakeshore line *should* take some load off of the subway though both at Kipling and Kennedy.

If fare by distance comes about and the Go Train is very frequent I'd expect damn near everybody at those 2 stations to skip the subway -- which also means skipping the Bloor/Yonge interchange.

I expect their simulations show this and it bought a few years before a DRL was required. The main purpose of the DRL is relief at Bloor/Yonge station. Recessions also tend to reduce new infrastructure requirements

 

[ShonTron]

Neither the Lakeshore nor the Georgetown lines meet Kipling (Milton Line) or Kennedy (Stouffville Line). I'm sure you are right, it will likely reduce the load somewhat on the B-D, but Yonge will be strained further by the extension to the border of Richmond Hill and the TC lines crossing it. The DRL would have relieved the pressure from people coming from the northeast, which the Lakeshore Line will not help enough in this regard.

Edit: I think the only GO line that could come close to having the impact of a DRL is "express rail" on the Stouffville. The Richmond Hill line is a wash.

 

[Anth]

I expect their simulations show this and it bought a few years before a DRL was required. The main purpose of the DRL is relief at Bloor/Yonge station. Recessions also tend to reduce new infrastructure requirements

While their simulations might show the proposed network operating up to their standards over the next couple decades without a DRL, they wouldn't show the lost opportunity of serving huge, dense, important swaths of downtown properly with full subway service and the positive feedback effects that would have on the city's development in every sense (economic, social, structural, etc.) over such a long period of time. Pushing such a key piece of infrastructure so far into the future is massively short-sighted, especially with so many redundant pet projects on the table put there by technical dilettantes. The DRL isn't just about redistributing network load; it's also about connectivity.

Besides, simulations are only as good as their designers and, as an engineer, I'd love to see far greater detail about their model and methods. Given how politicized all of this is, however, I doubt we'll see much.

 

[rbt]

Neither the Lakeshore nor the Georgetown lines meet Kipling (Milton Line) or Kennedy (Stouffville Line).

True, technically they don't meet at the subway stations. I conveyed by thoughts poorly.

I was thinking local bus routes might converge at nearby GO stations on their route in addition to the subway end-points.

Very few riders at subway end-points are walk-in. Many of these folks would likely ride a bus 15 minutes to a nearby GO station rather than 15 minutes to the subway.

 

[DavidH]

Besides, simulations are only as good as their designers and, as an engineer, I'd love to see far greater detail about their model and methods. Given how politicized all of this is, however, I doubt we'll see much.

According to the draft draft document, we're *supposed* to be seeing a document that shows this, but it hasn't been made available yet. We'll see if it actually shows up.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am fairly certain that better fare integration, increased traffic on GO and the capacity improvements coming on the Yonge line would probably suffice for 15 years. But they will have to start soon after that on the DRL....waiting for 25 years would prove disastrous both for N-S traffic on the Yonge line and E-W traffic in the King/Queen corridor....and the latter was even ignored by Transit City.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Besides, simulations are only as good as their designers and, as an engineer, I'd love to see far greater detail about their model and methods. Given how politicized all of this is, however, I doubt we'll see much.

According to the draft draft document, we're *supposed* to be seeing a document that shows this, but it hasn't been made available yet. We'll see if it actually shows up.

There isn't a non-political document in the world that could justify lines like Morningside or Steeles East/Taunton. I think everyone at Metrolinx should take a field trip along all the corridors they think are worth spending billions of dollars on and see for themselves how much nothing is actually out there on some of them.

I also find it amusing that they're worried about bringing rapid transit to suburban sprawlholes that aren't even built yet like Seaton, yet they're perfectly happy to wait until every lot between Queen and the lake is occupied by a skyscraper before considering the DRL.

 

[Dan416]

I think what some others on here has mentioned is true. The problem with Metrolinx is that the board is made up of politicians, rather than us (or maybe professional transit planners).

 

[kEiThZ]

I think what some others on here has mentioned is true. The problem with Metrolinx is that the board is made up of politicians, rather than us (or maybe professional transit planners).

It's not that the board is composed of politicians....one can't fault democracy for working that way....it's that they lack the gumption to do what is necessary. This is particularly galliing given that Metrolinx is an easy scapegoat that they can all use. Just slap on the Gardiner road toll and say Metrolinx made me do it. Why is that so hard?