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Finch West Line 6 LRT

lead82 said:
I'm curious why some folks here think a Finch East LRT would cost $1B. Since Finch East has mainly express type riders, we could put the LRT in the hydro corridor until Don Mills. Many users take the bus to get from Finch station to Seneca College. The express bus does work fine on Finch, but it's expensive to operate since many buses (and drivers) are required to shuttle all those people. It would be operationally better to run an LRT due to the cost savings in labour.
Using the hydro corridor from Yonge to Don Mills would make construction a heck of a lot cheaper.
Click to expand...

There just aren't any good reasons to build a Finch East LRT other than continuing Finch West east of Yonge for the sake of continuing it east of Yonge.

It would cost about the same as other Transit City lines...Finch East to Morningside is about the same length as Finch West to Humber, which will cost almost a billion dollars. Operational efficiency is a worthy goal, but you're kind of forgetting that a billion dollars would need to be spent before the savings kick in...it will take hundreds of years to recoup that cost through fewer drivers.

Finch East doesn't have mainly express type riders...I've used the Finch East bus thousands of times and I know that almost every stop is regularly used. The hydro corridor wouldn't be a good option for local service, particularly for people south of Finch...you'd need to keep running some buses on Finch. Now, a branch that runs non-stop over to Don Mills or Warden would be used by some, but offering this service at the expense of all other local service is a bad idea.

Unlike many other routes, a large proportion of Finch East riders ride quite far along Finch (crowds on buses usually don't start thinning out until around Warden, and the buses always have people on them until McCowan, after which it declines sharply)...and the riders that get off before Don Mills are often replaced by as many or more new riders at Seneca. The distances that they're travelling to get to the subway is clear proof that a great many Finch East patrons would/could/should shift over to other routes - a longer Sheppard line, a better Richmond Hill GO line, a better Stouffville line (which doesn't even have a station at Finch), a new Midtown GO line, a Danforth extension to STC, a Don Mills line, a GO line in the rail corridor north of Steeles, Warden or McCowan lines, etc., etc. The only reason they all take Finch is because they have no other options. There's virtually zero turnover other than at Warden and Don Mills. If there's hundreds or thousands of people that might take a Finch branch that runs for 10km or whatever without stopping, shuttling them to the subway, maybe these people should not be forced to take a local bus route. A Don Mills line, plus an extended Shepaprd subway and Viva improvements, would serve many Seneca-bound riders.

Finch East has no redevelopment potential. Finch East buses do not get caught in traffic, which keeps buses moving and keeps travel times genuinely reliable. LRT service would mean a reduction in frequency, affecting travel times. Articulated buses, coupled with all the proposed and potential transit lines that would intercept Finch East riders and reduce the crowds, would be capable of keeping the existing bus service on Finch as good as it is...and keeping bus service but augmenting it with some articulated vehicles and additional express options would not cost a billion dollars.
 
I wasn't actually proposing a full Finch East LRT out to Morningside, I was mainly proposing that the Finch West LRT not end at Yonge but continue east until Don Mills and then head south towards Don Mills & Sheppard to connect with the Sheppard subway and the Sheppard East LRT. The point there is to enhance the connectivity of the network. Using the hydro corridor would reduce costs and would help relieve the congestion on the bus route. I am not proposing that the 39 be replaced, but merely augmented for part of the journey by an LRT in the hydro corridor. Finch East does not have much road width space to accomodate an LRT, and you are correct that there is not much development potential there.

However, Transit city is very poorly planned. There are many individual lines that don't connect with each other. This is especially true of Finch W LRT and Sheppard East LRT. More connections would improve cross travel and reduce the number of transfers.
 
lead82 - the TTC seems to have minded this gap a few months ago and is already looking at some sort of link between the Finch and Sheppard lines, though I haven't seen anywhere just what they have in mind. An April update said they would look at "the eastern alignment of the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT, notably the continuity of travel across Yonge Street, and connecting to the Sheppard Subway alignment."

You can find the report at http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3545/Transit_City_Light_Rail_Plan_-_Status_Update_for_April_2008.pdf.
 
Rainforest

If they do go with that link between Finch W and Sheppard E using the hydro corridor along Finch E, perhaps they should run the line a little further than Don Mills, and serve Seneca College from the north. The line can then cross 404 and run in the space east of it, to the station at Consumers. Apart from improving the Crosstown trips, such a line will improve access to Seneca from both the west and the east.

Incidentally, that plan would be of some use even if Sheppard subway is extended eastward.

However, this is probably not a Phase I projects. There are other priorities.
 
A Finch East "overrun" of Finch West would give access to the Sheppard LRT yard during maintenance or if the rail was damaged. The recent need to park St Clair streetcars on the street because Hillcrest was cut off by Bathurst works is a demonstration of how that can be useful.
 
Just came back from the Finch West LRT Open House:

The stop spacing is similar to Sheppard East and Scarborough/Malvern - 400-500m.
Approximately 27 stops.

The alignment starts at Yonge and follows Finch to Hwy. 27 and then turns south towards Humber College Blvd. After that, they are studying whether to turn west into the College Campus or further south towards the new Woodbine Live development (and it appears, the general direction of the airport).

This is the first TC line that I'm aware of that incorporates centre platforms and tracks that are located on the side of the road. The alignment on Highway 27 from Finch south to Humber College is physically just west of the road. Centre platforms will be located at Martin Grove, Kipling, Dufferin, Wilmington and Torresdale due to curves in the alignment and grades into the Humber and Don River valleys.

This study does not consider extensions east of Yonge or west of Highway 27.

There are 2 options for a connection at Finch West Stn. - at grade (similar to the Bloor Streetcar platform at Yonge from 1954-1966), and underground.

There are 5 options for a connection at Finch Stn. -

1. At grade, just west of Yonge in the centre of Finch
2. Underground, directly below Yonge and Finch, parallel to Finch
3. At grade, in the centre of Yonge, just north of Finch
4. At grade, parallel to Yonge, at the south end of the current bus terminal (east side)
5. A loop that begins at Yonge and Duplex, heads north, east on Hendon/Bishop, crossing Yonge, then south along the east side of the bus terminal connecting back to Finch to head west.

There are also alignment considerations at Jane and Hwy 400.

There is no mention of using the hydro corridor.

The exact location of storage tracks and crossovers are still to be determined, but there will be storage tracks at both ends and at Finch West Station. Storage tracks will be every 4km approx.

A yard location is still to be determined, but it is envisioned to be used by both Finch West and Jane LRT's, so it would make sense for the yard to be close to this intersection.

All in all, a very suitable improvement to the current situation, IMO.
 
Thanks for the report :)

I would vote for continuing down 27 to the airport via woodbine live.
 
Thanks for the report, JPG.

Humber College and Woodbine Racetrack aren't located right on Hwy 27, and Woodbine Centre's entrance isn't right on 27 either. This is a situation where taking the LRT off of the street makes a lot of sense. Perhaps a trip through the Humber College parking lot by Arboureum Blvd, south alongside 27, and down Queen's Plate Dr to the front door of Woodbine Racetrack and onwards to wherever.

If we fail to bring the line within easy access of these major destinations, we will fail to maximize the potential of the line.
 
Yeah. I'd even bring it down to the CN corridor, where it can magically create a link with GO, VIA, Brampton, Mississauga, York Region Transits, and an airport rail shuttle. The destinations like Woodbine are tantalizingly close. There is a comment on one of the boards mentioning a possible link to Woodbine Live. An alternative alignment makes perfect sense.

It's also a tight squeeze between Bathurst and Yonge, and there was an indication of some of the protests that may come up - the point is that the U-turns are admittedly, not well-placed through here, and one person there giving out little sheets of paper thinks cars heading to destinations on the opposite side of Finch will use side streets rather than put up with u-turns and create traffic chaos on local streets.
 
I also attended the open house on Tuesday, and got to take a look at some of the preliminary designs of the line. It looks like a very good design, and stops are fairly reasonably spaced out, although there are some instances where they are too close together. I think the design will definitely enhance the street quality of Finch. I did hear many people complain about this design. One person there said he though North Americans are spoiled by our great public transit and that we should leave enough alone. Another member of the general public wanted us to build on the hydro right of way so that he can drive on Finch as always. It was quite amusing to see the consultants answer the questions and deal with such harassment from the public.

Overall, I think the main issue with this line will be the connection to Finch station. I would hope they end up choosing the underground connection tunnel by expanding the mezzanine south of Finch and having the LRT drop off passengers there. Any surface connection would cause massive headaches for the intersection, as many people already cross Finch in order to get to the subway entrance on the north side. An underground connection could create an entrance on the south side of Finch and would actually improve traffic on the intersection by allowing cars to turn more freely by reducing the amount of pedestrians crossing the street.
 
ShonTron said:
Yeah. I'd even bring it down to the CN corridor, where it can magically create a link with GO, VIA, Brampton, Mississauga, York Region Transits, and an airport rail shuttle. The destinations like Woodbine are tantalizingly close. There is a comment on one of the boards mentioning a possible link to Woodbine Live. An alternative alignment makes perfect sense.

It's also a tight squeeze between Bathurst and Yonge, and there was an indication of some of the protests that may come up - the point is that the U-turns are admittedly, not well-placed through here, and one person there giving out little sheets of paper thinks cars heading to destinations on the opposite side of Finch will use side streets rather than put up with u-turns and create traffic chaos on local streets.
Click to expand...

There's nowhere else to go, after Humber College. I predict Woodbine racetrack (hopefully also a future GO station) and then a tunnel to Pearson airport.
 
Have you been out there or read what I wrote? I was referring to the destinations below Humber College - namely the mall and the racetrack, the destinations that are tantalizingly close. Woodbine Centre would be perfect for a renewal, and combined with Woodbine Live, better access to the College, and even the airport, it might even be desirable.
 
I wouldn't call drivers worried about driving on Finch harassment...it's not like there's abundant alternate roads that drivers will be able to take if the ROW affects them. There's almost no side streets to take, the 401's a mess, the 407 is expensive, Sheppard ends at Weston, Steeles is a mess...if traffic moves to other roads it'll hurt other bus routes.
 
Looking down at the Highway 27 and Finch West, I can see that the LRT could go down the hydro right-of-way to reach Humber College Blvd. Highway 27 goes into a depression in the hill at the Humber College Blvd. intersection. The LRT could then use the William Osler (aka Etobicoke General) hospital parking lot to bridge over Highway 27 into the parking lot of Humber College.
 
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