Finch West Line 6 LRT

[scarberiankhatru]

Stations should go wherever stations need to go, not where ridiculous "1km is good for rapid transit, 500m is good for local service" mantras say they should go. There's enough places on Finch that 800-1000+m gaps make perfect sense (like between Kipling and Islington) that average spacing of ~750m would be fine. 750-800m would mean splitting up concessions into 3, so you'd have stops like Topcliff/Tobermory and Sentinel, and Wilmington and Torresdale. Everyone forgets that people are starting their trip from random places up to one full kilometre north or south of Finch...for the majority of people as well as for the average person, 500m and 1000m stop spacing are no different in terms of walking.

The 97 is a bad example. It serves far larger gaps than what Just_Chris is suggesting (Eglinton to Lawrence is more than 2km, the detour onto Yonge Blvd is at the top of a very steep hill more than 1km from a station, the subway ends at Finch) and people do get off at subway stations...it runs into Finch, York Mills, and Davisville during the day (people don't get on north of Finch and ride to Davisville). During times it runs all the way south, lots of people get off at Eglinton.

 

[CDL.TO]

Station spacing between Coxwell and Main Street is about 1km, and there's no accompanying bus route. And between Eglinton and St. Clair, which also has a 1km stop spacing, I can't see many people riding the 97 just to get to the nearest subway stop. They don't even run a bus between Davisville and St. Clair after 6pm.

It's all pretty academic anyway, since stop locations are defined by the location of cross streets. Perhaps a better question would be what the minimum and maximum spacings should be?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Finch West: bike paths to follow the hydro corridor

Noted this in the PDF handout for the Finch West LRT:

City of Toronto’s Bike Plan
The City of Toronto’s Bike Plan is a 10 year strategy that includes the implementation of infrastructure to create a bicycle friendly environment that encourages the future use of bicycles for everyday transportation and enjoyment. In the Finch West area, planned bike paths follow the hydro corridor, then join Finch Avenue near Weston Road.

I wonder how the bike path will cross the 400? I guess a tunnel for bikes.

If I read it right, that means Finch west of Weston Road will have bicycle lanes, none east of Weston Road since the hydro corridor will have them.

 

[nfitz]

Station spacing between Coxwell and Main Street is about 1km, and there's no accompanying bus route.

Good point; that's where it transitions from the 500 to 600 m spacing that many complain is too close between Broadview and Coxwell, to about 900 m between Coxwell and Main. As I live in the Coxwell/Main area I'll comment that I find the spacing fine - even though I seem to frequently have transit trips to Toronto Honda that is exactly half-way between Woodbine and Main. The jump I find pushes it is the 1,500 or so metres between Main and Victoria Park (though their is buses on Danforth betwen Main and Victoria Park).

So 800-metre spacing should be fine on the LRTs. Given the significant speed increases the EAs are reporting for that jump, perhaps they should be aiming for that - though of course things will vary based on location. If you have a major intersection 400 metres from another major intersection or large school then 2 stops.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Good point; that's where it transitions from the 500 to 600 m spacing that many complain is too close between Broadview and Coxwell, to about 900 m between Coxwell and Main. As I live in the Coxwell/Main area I'll comment that I find the spacing fine - even though I seem to frequently have transit trips to Toronto Honda that is exactly half-way between Woodbine and Main. The jump I find pushes it is the 1,500 or so metres between Main and Victoria Park (though their is buses on Danforth betwen Main and Victoria Park).

So 800-metre spacing should be fine on the LRTs. Given the significant speed increases the EAs are reporting for that jump, perhaps they should be aiming for that - though of course things will vary based on location. If you have a major intersection 400 metres from another major intersection or large school then 2 stops.

The spacing should also consider not just the along the route, but also right angles and away from the route. That would add to the distance for possible riders. Especially, if one is on a cul-de-sac, it can add even more distance if one has to walk in circles.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the Transit City Light Rail Plan: Status Update for February 2009:

The options for the LRT connection at Don Mills Station on the Sheppard Subway, which were presented in the Environmental Study Report (ESR), are being reviewed in conjunction with the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan (RTP) and its vision to have a continuous east-west service across northern Toronto via Sheppard and Finch Avenues. An option which would facilitate this, and may be feasible, would be an extension of the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT, east of Yonge Street to Don Mills Road, and then south to meet the Sheppard East LRT at Don Mills Station. Both surface and various grade-separated arrangements for this possible connection at Don Mills Station are being studied. The effects on costs and schedule for the Sheppard East LRT project are being analyzed.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ In other words, a multi-billion dollar Sheppard Subway Bypass line.

 

[W. K. Lis]

^ In other words, a multi-billion dollar Sheppard Subway Bypass line.

Actually, no. More like a multi-million dollar bypass since the Don Mills LRT section between Finch and Sheppard will be used for the north-south section and the Yonge-Finch connection with the subway would have to be built anyways.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Actually, no. More like a multi-million dollar bypass since the Don Mills LRT section between Finch and Sheppard will be used for the north-south section and the Yonge-Finch connection with the subway would have to be built anyways.

Actually, yes. The entire line would be a multi-billion dollar Sheppard subway bypass. Ridiculous.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Actually, yes. The entire line would be a multi-billion dollar Sheppard subway bypass. Ridiculous.

From the Sheppard East LRT EA:

Costs
Preliminary capital costs have been developed for the Sheppard East LRT line, between Don Mills Road and Meadowvale Road. The costs are estimated to be in the order of $655 million, assuming the LRT connects with the subway at the subway platform level of Don Mills Subway Station. With the alternative option of the subway being extended to Consumers Road, and a surface LRT station constructed there, the facility capital cost on the facility would increase to $775 million.
The estimated cost of purchasing 35 new light rail vehicles for this line, to accommodate the projected future ridership up to 2031, including additional vehicles for maintenance, is $210 million.
Therefore, the total order-of-magnitude of cost of the line is $865 million with the LRT connecting at Don Mills Station, and $985 million, if the subway were to be extended to Consumers Road. These cost estimates will undergo significant refinements as the project moves into the detailed design and engineering phases. These costs do not include property acquisition nor the appropriate factor for escalation over the duration of the construction.

So your multi-billion figure is off a little bit from $655 million, if a section of LRT is added between Yonge and Don Mills on Finch East. Closer to one billion.

The Yonge subway extension has a current estimate of $6 billion.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

From the Sheppard East LRT EA:



So your multi-billion figure is off a little bit from $655 million, if a section of LRT is added between Yonge and Don Mills on Finch East. Closer to one billion.

Nice try. Sheppard East + Finch West + a bit of Don Mills + part of Finch East = a multi-billion dollar 'crosstown' Sheppard subway bypass.

edit - and, no, the Yonge subway extension is not $6B. Not a nice try.

 

[Dan416]

Why don't they just build a "Crosstown" Finch LRT line rather than trying to stumpify Sheppard East? Oh that's right, because they WANT to turn the Sheppard Subway into a stump that'll never reach it's full potential.

 

[Rainforest]

Why don't they just build a "Crosstown" Finch LRT line rather than trying to stumpify Sheppard East?

One concern is whether every section of Finch East (Yonge to Leslie in particular) is wide enough to host a surface LRT line. If not, then the cost of Finch E LRT will rise quite a bit.

If it can fit, then your proposal should be on the table as one of options. Start with Finch Crosstown LRT now, and consider expanding the Sheppard subway at a later point.

 

[Dan416]

One concern is whether every section of Finch East (Yonge to Leslie in particular) is wide enough to host a surface LRT line. If not, then the cost of Finch E LRT will rise quite a bit.

If it can fit, then your proposal should be on the table as one of options. Start with Finch Crosstown LRT now, and consider expanding the Sheppard subway at a later point.

It's not really a proposal; it's an alternative to the stupidity of turning the Sheppard subway into a stump.

My preference is to finish Sheppard from Downsview to STC at least. It's a couple stops to the west, and a few more to the east. It's not that big an extension, but it'd make the Sheppard Subway so much more useful.

But if this LRT-crazed council insists on a Crosstown LRT corridor in that area, they might as well make it Finch all the way rather than Finch and Sheppard.

 

[ShonTron]

The 39 Finch East is crazy busy - there's a bus leaving Finch Station every one-and-a-half minutes in AM peak, every two minutes in PM peak and the one route with an express branch running 6 days a week, including middays and early evenings. It would make sense as an LRT, even if a Sheppard line was still built across.

My problem with Transit City has been more about the pieces (Jane, Sheppard East, stop spacing, not using Richview) than the concept of a LRT network tying together. Finch East makes lots more sense in this case, especially with Finch West right there as well.