Finch West Line 6 LRT

[W. K. Lis]

Pedestrian avenues is a key goal of Transit City, and if you read the public information boards for the Sheppard East LRT EA you'll find that official plan amendments are also being sent to council to bring the transit plan and the development plan into sync.

Also, Mayor Miller has said that transit city is only the first step in a plan to bring some form of higher-order transit to each transit priority corridor in the city. This will eventually mean Wilson and Lawrence, in addition to bringing Jane & Don Mills south into the core.

You'll have to ask the mayor why one line is considered a priority over another.

In addition, by pedestrian avenues, they also mean the speed limits for motor vehicles will be going down from 60 km/h to 50 km/h along those same avenues. If you want speed, you'll have to use the expressway (if possible, that is).

 

[doady]

I'm just saying, if the intent of Transit City is to facilitate the Avenues plan, then why are most of lines not in the designated "Avenues?" Where are the Wilson and Lawrence East lines? What about ROWs for the east-west downtown streetcar lines? A Queensway branch for the Queen streetcar? What about the overcrowding along the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge subway lines? Are Bloor, Danforth, and Yonge not part of the Avenues plan as well?

You can't say that the Finch West LRT belongs on the street considering all the other streets that I have mentioned that are all much prominent in the Avenues plan that have been completely ignored by Transit City. The Finch West LRT belongs in the hydro corridor.

I am not even convinced that putting the LRT on the street would better facilitate the Avenue-ization of Finch. 300 m from Finch is not a great distance, especially considering that some stations on the Yonge subway line are 2 km apart. Are subways no good for the Avenues plan then? Should we replace them all with on-street LRT?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Sheppard West has no streetcars and no streetcars are planned but it's pretty much the only place in the city where the Avenues plan is actually underway.

 

[Voltz]

I'm just saying, if the intent of Transit City is to facilitate the Avenues plan, then why are most of lines not in the designated "Avenues?" Where are the Wilson and Lawrence East lines? What about ROWs for the east-west downtown streetcar lines? A Queensway branch for the Queen streetcar? What about the overcrowding along the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge subway lines? Are Bloor, Danforth, and Yonge not part of the Avenues plan as well?

You can't say that the Finch West LRT belongs on the street considering all the other streets that I have mentioned that are all much prominent in the Avenues plan that have been completely ignored by Transit City. The Finch West LRT belongs in the hydro corridor.

I am not even convinced that putting the LRT on the street would better facilitate the Avenue-ization of Finch. 300 m from Finch is not a great distance, especially considering that some stations on the Yonge subway line are 2 km apart. Are subways no good for the Avenues plan then? Should we replace them all with on-street LRT?

The short answer is politics, it interferes with almost everything, particulary transit. and transit city is not the final or only plan that we will ever see, nor is it perfect.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

A question for anyone interested, but primarily for RedRocket: when evaluating the REX 401 line, did Metrolinx consider the Finch hydro corridor as an alternative route?

Would it be easier / cheaper to build there than along 401? Would it be a less direct route though?

And last but not least, would such a line be too close to residences in some areas, such as Bathurst to Yonge? If so, then any mode (REX rail, LRT, BRT) in the corridor is problematic.

 

[RedRocket191]

I'm just saying, if the intent of Transit City is to facilitate the Avenues plan, then why are most of lines not in the designated "Avenues?" Where are the Wilson and Lawrence East lines? What about ROWs for the east-west downtown streetcar lines? A Queensway branch for the Queen streetcar? What about the overcrowding along the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge subway lines? Are Bloor, Danforth, and Yonge not part of the Avenues plan as well?

As I said, your precious Wilson and Lawrence East lines are coming. The first round of Transit City was placed where it was because we can't do everything at once. Like it or lump it, we have to make priorities. The transit city offerings are considered priorities by the office of the mayor. If you disagree with how he ranked his priorities, fine, but all transit priority corridors will get higher order transit - and I can give you the date, location and time he said it if you don't believe me. I already said that the official plan is being modified. Some lines are not in designated avenues, but the change in designation is part of the EA for each line. Priorities can sometimes shift overnight, and what's important in the official plan today might be totally pointless on Monday.

You can't say that the Finch West LRT belongs on the street considering all the other streets that I have mentioned that are all much prominent in the Avenues plan that have been completely ignored by Transit City. The Finch West LRT belongs in the hydro corridor.

I am not even convinced that putting the LRT on the street would better facilitate the Avenue-ization of Finch. 300 m from Finch is not a great distance, especially considering that some stations on the Yonge subway line are 2 km apart. Are subways no good for the Avenues plan then? Should we replace them all with on-street LRT?

Yonge Street is not a very good comparison. Yonge was always an avenue and was always stable enough to resist the tendency to concentrate around the subway stations and abandon everything in between. It is designated an avenue because it works and we want to preserve that dynamic. Finch, on the other hand, is a street which we want to convert into an avenue. High quality transit will do that, and I believe that high-quality transit should minimize the walking between the storefronts on Finch and the transit line.

I've got no problem building something in the Hydro corridor as part of a larger regional network, but if the vision is to integrate built form and transit then I don't think it makes sense to disconnect those two things from the start.

 

[RedRocket191]

A question for anyone interested, but primarily for RedRocket: when evaluating the REX 401 line, did Metrolinx consider the Finch hydro corridor as an alternative route?

Would it be easier / cheaper to build there than along 401? Would it be a less direct route though?

And last but not least, would such a line be too close to residences in some areas, such as Bathurst to Yonge? If so, then any mode (REX rail, LRT, BRT) in the corridor is problematic.

I think this is a question best answered when the draft RTP comes out, as the draft concepts are really just experiments to see what would happen if we built the lines shown. Once we get our hands on the document in September, we'll know the rational behind each line and dot on the map.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The first round of Transit City was placed where it was because we can't do everything at once.

What they could do in one step was preempt as many potential subway lines as possible and rush the lines halfway through to completion before Jane Public and John Q. Taxpayer have a chance to protest at the polls.

 

[Edward Skira]

Sheppard West has no streetcars and no streetcars are planned but it's pretty much the only place in the city where the Avenues plan is actually underway.

I drove down Sheppard from Keele to Yonge last weekend. I was quite impressed with the growth on the section east of Dufferin. Especially considering what used to be there.

 

[Voltz]

What they could do in one step was preempt as many potential subway lines as possible and rush the lines halfway through to completion before Jane Public and John Q. Taxpayer have a chance to protest at the polls.

Ridiculous arguments such as this are doing absolutely nothing constructive,

and as to the speed of the EA's, do you really want to go back to the old way where it would take up to three years to do an EA for something as simple as the bus lanes to York University?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ridiculous arguments such as this are doing absolutely nothing constructive,

and as to the speed of the EA's, do you really want to go back to the old way where it would take up to three years to do an EA for something as simple as the bus lanes to York University?

Keep drinking the light rail Kool Aid. If billions of dollars are going to be wasted, why shouldn't we try to change it before it happens? If speeding up means removing public input, knowing the outcomes beforehand and designing the process to justify the outcomes, speeding up may not be better.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Toronto Official Plan, in chapter 2 Avenues: Reurbanizing Arterial Corridors includes:

• how the streetscape and pedestrian environment can be improved
• where public open space can be created and existing parks improved
• where trees can be planted; and
• where use of the road allowance can be optimized and transit service improved

Changes for the buildings along the Transit City avenues will change building-by-building over a number of years. It will be by zoning changes and design guidelines to create a mix of uses, heights, density, setbacks, and other zoning standards.

Putting a LRT on Finch West will optimize the road allowance and improve transit service. However, it is only one of many steps for the urbanization of Finch West. Putting a LRT on the hydro right-of-way would not.

 

[CDL.TO]

Putting a LRT on Finch West will optimize the road allowance and improve transit service. However, it is only one of many steps for the urbanization of Finch West. Putting a LRT on the hydro right-of-way would not.

Building a subway line under a street will not optimize the road allowance (whatever the heck that means) or provide transit service on that street. Does that mean that a subway line would not promote the urbanization of the street?

In reality it's all about good access to efficient transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

When the TC lines were announced, I thought of the hydro corridor as the obviously preferred location for Finch W LRT. But all factors taken into account, this is not so obvious. Hydro corridor might be more trouble than it is worth for this route.

First of all, the speed will depend mostly on the stop spacing and the implementation of traffic signal priority, rather than on the alignment. If the line is in hydro corridor, it will stop anyway at all major concessions (Bathurst, Dufferin, Keele etc) and at mid-concessions (such as Senlac, Alness). In principle, same stop frequency can be set on the street-ROW line; and if the traffic signals allow the transit vehicle to breeze through other (minor) intersections, it will be as fast as in hydro corridor. In reality, the stop frequency might be set higher on the street-ROW line, but that is a matter of choice rather than technical limitation. And even then, the difference is not likely to be large.

Then, construction in the hydro corridor might seem cheaper, but there would be a number of hurdles to overcome. Yonge to Bathurst, it might be too close to the residential backyards. Bathurst to Dufferin, the Lord Ross Reservoir needs to be bridged or bypassed, soccer fields would have to be closed, and some trip generators (plaza at Finch / Bathurst, apartment buildings near Wilmington) would be missed. Dufferin to Keele, LRT tracks would have to be built into the planned York U busway. That requires coordination between the two TTC's projects, something the TTC does not particularly excel at. Around Jane, the street alignment is preferred, to better serve the large shopping malls.

Perhaps the LRT belongs to the on-steert ROW, while the hydro corridor should be reserved for some future, truly express, inter-regional service. The latter could be an inter-regional busway, or LRT express tracks, or REX rail.

 

[Dan416]

What they could do in one step was preempt as many potential subway lines as possible and rush the lines halfway through to completion before Jane Public and John Q. Taxpayer have a chance to protest at the polls.

QFT. This is so true it's not even funny anymore. How anyone can deny it I'm not quite sure. There's more than a few LRT fanatics on this board. That said, an LRT line along Finch West shouldn't be through a hydro corridor, no matter how much $$$ it might save. For the same reason I think the Mississauga Transitway is rather pointless, because it doesn't help Mississaugans get anywhere they need to go. It'll even be difficult to get to, especially in the west end of Mississauga. I live off Creditview, yet, there's no Creditview stop. That that that would really help me get to Square One. And it doesn't even extend as far as the subway. So what's the point really?

If the Sheppard East LRT goes through, the people of Scarborough are going to be very pissed, for a very long time. As if the SRT didn't piss them off enough. I asked a friend from Scarborough about it, and he preferred it be replaced with subway. And based on that sample size, 100% of Scarberians would like the SRT replaced with subway. And for the Sheppard line to be finished, or at least to GO somewhere. And NOT with a transfer. And not downgrading service from a subway to a streetcar, as some on here have advocated.