Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Hopkins123]

No misunderstandings here, I just don't get the idea of tolling 401 to finance "all" transportation projects, when you could toll Gardiner and/or DVP for the DRL, and say the Scarborough section of the 401 for the SSE.

With your suggestion of tolling the 401 in order to finance "all" transportation projects, I would rather SSE not get built at all.

Tolling just one section would not generate enough money. Even John Tory's proposal to toll the Gardiner/DVP would only amount to $240 million per year. Now there is merit to tolling all the highways through Toronto such that motorists have no alternative but to use toll roads (or public transit!!), but in a bid of fairness we need to secure funding for all planned grade-separated transit projects from the same pot.

Nothing would be better than seeing the SSE being built concurrently with Crosstown East, YNSE and DRL. And roughly $1 billion/year revenue from the City alone, coupled with whatever extra the Feds (and Province?) chip in would go a long way.

 

[Sakraycore]

My opinion on that Property Price Subway Map is that while we know the RT is absolute garbage, I don't think it's 100% the reason why properties are cheap in Scarborough. For example, Don Mills isn't doing so hot either and it's on subway. But that's the besides the point, the RT needs to go regardless of property pricing.

 

[OneCity]

No argument there - the main point being using dubious maps for broad strokes assertions for something like property value being directly driven down by RT.

AoD

The point was there is a difference in demand for the LRT and subway and the map was supporting of that statement. Sure there are other factors like in any debate and I didnt deny that for this one. I just found it supporting that our odd out of place elbow on the transit map is shown to have much lower property values. You can make your case as to why you think that has nothing to do with subway or RT anytime? Id love to hear why its so unreasonable

You can feel free to disagree that the RT is inferior to Scarborough Centre and impacts economic value to Scarborough's core, but calling people telling others not to post is not a debate and being called a troll for providing a snippet of supporting evidence as to why the subway is better for Scarborough is a stretch compared to the mockery that goes on here to opposing views.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The point was there is a difference in demand for the LRT and subway and the map was supporting that. Sure there are other factors like in any debate and I didnt deny that.

You can feel free to disagree that the RT is inferior to Scarborough Centre and impacts economic value to Scarborough's core, but calling people telling others not to post is not a debate and being called a troll for providing a snippet of supporting evidence as to why the subway is better for Scarborough is a stretch compared to the mockery that goes on here to opposing views.

This is your post:

Newsflash. The RT really sucks! Get that garbage outta here and finish the subway loop with stops
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...ronto-design-phase.2975/page-861#post-1231587

Your point didn't look particularly nuanced to me. To go back now and claim that there are other factors and stating how you didn't deny them is changing the point after the fact - as if it is something you positioned yourself for in that original post. Sorry, that's revisionist nonsense. One can argue for supporting subways without resorting to bad evidence - and going straight to the emotional appeal isn't it.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

This is your post:

Newsflash. The RT really sucks! Get that garbage outta here and finish the subway loop with stops
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...ronto-design-phase.2975/page-861#post-1231587

Your point didn't look particularly nuanced to me. To go back now and claim that there are other factors and stating how you didn't deny them is changing the point after the fact - as if it is something you positioned yourself for in that original post. Sorry, that's revisionist nonsense. One can argue for supporting subways without resorting to bad evidence - and going straight to the emotional appeal isn't it.

AoD

Sorry, it is garbage in my opinion for many reasons:

-poor alignment thru Scarborough
-orphan technology to the City's main infrastructure
-transfer one stop before Scarborough main Centre
-poor maintenance, noise etc...

This was just supporting as to why so many Scarborough residents feel its inferior. You can feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. The map clearly helps support this inferiority to the subway. That's not to say LRT will be an inferior technology. It will be inferior if this is how its connected to Torontos existing main transit artery with the transfers and route design.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The point is property value isn't necessarily driven by transit mode - especially along a line with a strong industrial land use component. To pivot back to this RT sucks narrative just illustrates that you didn't get my point. Let's put it this way - half of Scarborough has low relatively property values - and it's just because of RT even when the line pretty far away from it? You gave it way too much credit.

AoD

 

[pstogios]

The point is property value isn't necessarily driven by transit mode - especially along a line with a strong industrial land use component. To pivot back to this RT sucks narrative just illustrates that you didn't get my point. Let's put it this way - half of Scarborough has low relatively property values - and it's just because of RT even when the line pretty far away from it? You gave it way too much credit.

AoD

It's pretty clear he never has any nuance in his arguments beyond "The RT doesn't Respect Scarborough and only subways subways subways will".

 

[OneCity]

The point is property value isn't necessarily driven by transit mode - especially along a line with a strong industrial land use component. To pivot back to this RT sucks narrative just illustrates that you didn't get my point. Let's put it this way - half of Scarborough has low relatively property values - and it's just because of RT even when the line pretty far away from it? You gave it way too much credit.

AoD

Certainly fair and Ill agree the location is certainly part of the problem,which i consider just another part of the whole "RT" debacle in Scarborough. I think the the orphan technology, stop locations and transfer all impacts the attractiveness and value compared to the subway is also a major factor in terms of demand. If the map shows anything clear, its that we need to do things differently than what was done in the past for Scarborough. And although certainly different, the one stop subway isn't certainly not the answer.

 

[OneCity]

Why is it not relevant to compare Toronto's in-progress and proposed LRT network to a city which has a well established one? (and which has planned expansion)



In an apple to oranges comparison, perhaps that's true overall since Calgary has annexed areas and spread ever outward, but certainly older areas and the area south of downtown are intensifying. Scarborough certainly isn't so dense that a single additional subway stop on top of the existing two amounts to anything approaching adequate transit coverage.

Calgary's 2016 numbers:
• City 1,239,220
• Density 1,501.1/km2
• Urban 1,237,656
• Urban density 2,111.8/km2
• Metro 1,392,609 (4th)
• Metro density 272.5/km2

Scarborough's 2016 numbers:
• Total 632,098
• Density 3,367.6/km2 (8,722/sq mi)

But compare land area:
Calgary:
• Land 825.56 km2 (318.75 sq mi)
• Urban 586.08 km2 (226.29 sq mi)
• Metro 5,110.21 km2(1,973.06 sq mi)

Scarborough:
• Total 187.70 km2 (72.47 sq mi)

Scarborough is part of Toronto and is giant sub-City within. Toronto has an existing main artery infrastructure in place. You are not placing a high enough importance on the connection to what exists in this City and are looking at Scarborough thru an isolated lens by comparing to Calgary which is not part of a larger City, nor does it require a connection to an existing network. The ideology to isolate Scarborough Centre from the main artery is part of the problem we currently have Politically. The core of Scarborough should be connected, just as North York is. LRT can make a great feeder network, and or sub networks where-ever necessary.

Technology is not the problem and no one is question whether the LRT is sufficient for capacity. The connection of City Centre to the Core on the the existing technology, and what was built in proper comparable areas of the City is the main issue. Unfortunately it could have been built cheaper and with intermediate stops than the current plan, but our Politicians are so divided, and dug in to a technology rather than working together on the details for a compromise, that a bizarre one stop subway might actually pass just to move us forward.

 

[JGHali]

All through this you are engaging in a false dichotomy that assumes that having to make a transfer at Kennedy implies a lack of "connection". This similarly assumes that most people in Scarborough are single-mindedly headed downtown, even though it's been repeatedly shown that intra-Scarborough travel is predominant. There's nothing particularly special about STC and the nearby Civic Centre compared to elsewhere in Scarborough; North York's initial "downtown" development mostly occurred prior to amalgamation, so it is not really comparable.

Simply put, there is no "ideology" here. It is singularly wasteful to blow billions on a single stop when you can serve far more people in a far larger network with LRT technology. My point about Calgary is that there LRT serves an even more dispersed population, but with reasonable service (q5-10min) and through a downtown that is more developed and economically intense than STC will ever, ever be. They also manage to have a free fare zone throughout downtown.

And, really, the argument that it's somehow definitive that LRT lacks sufficient capacity is entirely specious and poorly substantiated. Given that much of Scarborough is actually quite a bit farther in distance from downtown than, for example, North York, it begs asking why better zoned fares of GO RER are not a more appropriate place to fund to ensure quick transit downtown. After all, if everyone is just interested in a one-seat ride downtown (provided they consider downtown exclusively to exist along Bloor St), why not just venture to one of Scarborough's several GO stations once RER is implemented?

 

[OneCity]

This similarly assumes that most people in Scarborough are single-mindedly headed downtown, even though it's been repeatedly shown that intra-Scarborough travel is predominant. There's nothing particularly special about STC and the nearby Civic Centre compared to elsewhere in Scarborough; North York's initial "downtown" development mostly occurred prior to amalgamation, so it is not really comparable.

This stat is heavily misused by those that want to use it against the subway. Scarborough Central is not a bedroom community to the core because RT was a deterrent to people who live here and to those that would set choose to live and commute. The subway will provide greater connection to the main jobs core. Better local transit and feed network is a separate issue

Simply put, there is no "ideology" here. It is singularly wasteful to blow billions on a single stop when you can serve far more people in a far larger network with LRT technology. My point about Calgary is that there LRT serves an even more dispersed population, but with reasonable service (q5-10min) and through a downtown that is more developed and economically intense than STC will ever, ever be. They also manage to have a free fare zone throughout downtown.

The one stop subway is a waste. But when the opposition refuses to acknowledge any flaws in the opposing plans and refuse to bend to resolve a known problem this can happen. The difference in cost between connecting to the main subway on the RT corridor of LRT would have been well worth the extra funds. Comparing Calgary will get us now where, there are way to many differences. Although as an aside I would love to see the "downtown" section of the current RT being used as a cross City Centre feeder and possible connection to Malvern in the future.

And, really, the argument that it's somehow definitive that LRT lacks sufficient capacity is entirely specious and poorly substantiated. Given that much of Scarborough is actually quite a bit farther in distance from downtown than, for example, North York, it begs asking why better zoned fares of GO RER are not a more appropriate place to fund to ensure quick transit downtown. After all, if everyone is just interested in a one-seat ride downtown (provided they consider downtown exclusively to exist along Bloor St), why not just venture to one of Scarborough's several GO stations once RER is implemented?

Are you saying Scarborough Centre is quite a bit further from downtown than North York Centre? Thats stretching things. Your other comment stating that the issue is a "one seat ride" is the only concern is not true. Its only part of the issue as there are many reasons to being connected. The subway gives Scarborough's major "Growth node" a far better economic opportunity in the future being directly connected to the City's main infrastructure. Just like North York, Vaughan, Islington, soon to be RH. People in Scarborough feel disconnected from the City and having one less transfer downtown on the TTC is extremely important for those with 4 hour commutes. The Sheppard LRT faces similar optics from many Scarborough residents eyes as we'd be adding a transfer which wasn't not there before and forcing resident off to get on an odd subway stub. There were other options to integrate in a more cost effective manner but digging in heals on Millers plan was not a good one at this stage

You may not consider much of that important, or may think Scarborough residents dont "deserve" to be integrated. That's fair to disagree, or not care about these issues because they dont impact you the same way. But its the reality and its clear there is large demand to simply do better. For Councillors to be unable to compromise, work together and put a higher priority on the connection of Scarboroughs main Centre following the couple elections is pathetic. And those stuck on the old LRT plan are as much to blame for not working towards alternate solutions. This shouldn't have been that difficult or expensive to resolve, but our internal Politics is too divided unfortunately and we need to move on sooner than later

 

[Rainforest]

And, really, the argument that it's somehow definitive that LRT lacks sufficient capacity is entirely specious and poorly substantiated.

Nobody is even using that argument. The RT/LRT option is less convenient because of the transfer, but there is no doubt that it would have enough capacity.

Given that much of Scarborough is actually quite a bit farther in distance from downtown than, for example, North York, it begs asking why better zoned fares of GO RER are not a more appropriate place to fund to ensure quick transit downtown. After all, if everyone is just interested in a one-seat ride downtown (provided they consider downtown exclusively to exist along Bloor St), why not just venture to one of Scarborough's several GO stations once RER is implemented?

The bottleneck is the Union Rail Corridor width and capacity, and the lack of resolve on the part of both the city and Metrolinx to undertake a major investment in that corridor. Mayor Tory kind of made an attempt with his SmartTrack, but those plans are already watered down to something minor like 7 trains an hour instead of 4.

Proper use of GO RER would be of great help to Scarborough, as well as to other inner and outer suburbs. But in the absence of any definite plans to resolve the central bottleneck, it would be unwise for Scarberians to trade their subway extension for that bird in the sky. SSE may be odd in its one-stop version, but it will do the job of connecting the area to downtown, it is funded, and is very doable and largerly independent on transit improvements elsewhere.

 

[JGHali]

Nobody is even using that argument. The RT/LRT option is less convenient because of the transfer, but there is no doubt that it would have enough capacity.

OneCity is absolutely using that argument, amongst numerous other shifting goal posts.

The bottleneck is the Union Rail Corridor width and capacity, and the lack of resolve on the part of both the city and Metrolinx to undertake a major investment in that corridor. Mayor Tory kind of made an attempt with his SmartTrack, but those plans are already watered down to something minor like 7 trains an hour instead of 4.

Proper use of GO RER would be of great help to Scarborough, as well as to other inner and outer suburbs. But in the absence of any definite plans to resolve the central bottleneck, it would be unwise for Scarberians to trade their subway extension for that bird in the sky. SSE may be odd in its one-stop version, but it will do the job of connecting the area to downtown, it is funded, and is very doable and largerly independent on transit improvements elsewhere.

I fail to see how 7 trains an hour is bad. I think it's generous to suggest that the SSE is truly "funded".

 

[OneCity]

OneCity is absolutely using that argument, amongst numerous other shifting goal posts.

.

Really? From two post back I even stated:

"Technology is not the problem and no one is question(ing) whether the LRT is sufficient for capacity. The connection of City Centre to the Core on the the existing technology, and what was built in proper comparable areas of the City is the main issue."

And, really, the argument that it's somehow definitive that LRT lacks sufficient capacity is entirely specious and poorly substantiated.

I was going to rebut this previously but assumed you were talking about someone else or just a misread on your part as I absolutely have never said anything close. Since you feel its absolute please feel free to enlighten me on where I have questioned this before

Also so you don't mistakenly claim any goal posts are shifting around heres what I meant:

It goes without saying LRT is sufficient for capacity. I would never argue that and that makes it a legitimate option, but doesn't necessarily make it the right choice when integrating the core of Scarborough with the existing network in the City of Toronto for reasons we likely disagree on. Not enough weight in Transit City was given to the importance of connectivity for Central Scarborough to the existing main transit artery. And the optics of Vaughan and North York subways to this City Centres only magnified the flaws of introducing a new transfer on Sheppard and continuing the tarnished legacy of a undesirable RT and keeping a transfer in front of the main core.

Transit City was OK. But it wasn't the glorious plan some, mostly outsiders make it out to be. A little massage towards connectivity shouldn't have been so hard or expensive. But our Politics is polarized to an unhealthy state and thats on both sides and for a certain Opposition it was and is all out transfers with no wiggle room. This even after the support has been pretty overwhelming. The City really has to find a way to move forward more cohesively on these type of issues.

 

[OneCity]

I'm glad we agree. It's sad that you couldn't concede and had to resort to moving goal posts.

What is annoying is this idea here that Scarborough is seen as some utterly suburban wasteland. First there was the constant comparison to the 905, and now apparently, we have to move the goalpost to compare to Calgary? Why resort to such hysterics to shout down the Scarborough subway? I can understand the merits of the proposal are debatable. The hyperbole resorted to (and not just on this forum) is what annoys and simply hardens attitudes on the other side.

These density comparisons are also somewhat pointless. Simply because transit has to be viewed as a system. And Scarborough has to be viewed in the context of being a borough inside the 416. It's not Pickering. And it's not a standalone city of 500k like say London. This insistence that transit must be planned on hard numerical cutoffs without considering the public's transit priorities and desires is what is leading to the gap between professional planners and the voting public (in these parts).

For example, if I commute only inside Scarborough and let's say I am along a route that would benefit from the LRT. If my commute goes from 30 mins to 20 mins, that's a huge improvement percentage wise. But really, it's not going to be perceived as a large improvement, because, "it's only 10 mins". If that same ten minutes is saved on a 1.5 hr commute, the perceived benefit is going to be even lower. The public really does not care about 10 mins here or there. They want to see large cuts to their commute time. And most of these are working class people, like say my own 60 something mother, who takes the TTC for 1.5-1.7 hrs each way from Morningside Heights to her office near Union. You'll have to convince people like that, there will be large savings on the LRT. It's why I remain convinced that the only way out of these debates is to shift a lot of the 416 downtown bound commuters to suburban rail.

Relocated your post. Although this thread could probably be under Toronto Politics

I would also add for the majority of subway supporting residents it is not just about the slight time savings between local and City Core commutes, its also the inconvenience of the transfer, its the isolation optics of Scarborough's main hub, & the impacts of this integration will have on Scarborough Centre future growth. Residents do care about the unfair perception about Scarborough or Scarberia as many like to call it here in this Forum and this certainly plays a big factor in irritating the large local populace of the City. Good luck convincing these people after the RT debacle, North Yorks subway overload, and the Subway/BRT combo we just built to the empty Vaughan Centre and now Richmond Hill discussion. Given the geological challenges of the McCowan corridor its unfortunate the subway isnt being built on the RT corridor with intermediate stops. It's just like the beloved LRT only much more appropriate for this City and to connect to a main Centre.