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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

OneCity said:
Also so you don't mistakenly claim any goal posts are shifting around heres what I meant:

It goes without saying LRT is sufficient for capacity. I would never argue that and that makes it a legitimate option, but doesn't necessarily make it the right choice when integrating the core of Scarborough with the existing network in the City of Toronto for reasons we likely disagree on. Not enough weight in Transit City was given to the importance of connectivity for Central Scarborough to the existing main transit artery.
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Progress!.......could those connectivity issues have been resolved to your satisfaction for something less than the difference in cost between the current subway plan and the LRT plan? Or are we gonna, now, go back to the "only a subway will do" stance?
 
TOareaFan said:
Progress!.......could those connectivity issues have been resolved to your satisfaction for something less than the difference in cost between the current subway plan and the LRT plan? Or are we gonna, now, go back to the "only a subway will do" stance?
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The connectivity issues could have been solved in a much more fiscally responsible manner than Tory's subway/Smarttrack plan. But since the only other option involving LRT was already rejected out of spite and a few in that same group are still opposed to anything but transfer LRT I would say yes it would have to be a subway option. But even then any "new" plan on a different alignment could involve starting over and that is not going to see much support at this point. Stalling the debate further could negate any cost benefit so the details of any new plan would have to be impressive to all. My guess is the more time that is wasted debating the technology towards election time, the greater support Tory will gain in Scarborough as he sells his bigger picture vision and there is a strong desire to just get on with building.

To me and I believe many other Scarborough residents the subway on the RT corridor and completion of the Sheppard subway extension just made sense all along for many important reasons locally. But to David Miller and some City outsiders see the main criteria here as only "cost" and "adequate ridership" without placing the same weight for the importance and impact on connectivity. Perception and optics are already a sore sport with many residents here, convenience for commuters less with LRT, and attractiveness of the main hub for the future would not be as high. Again I understand many outsiders don't care or agree, but that's what it is.

Given the polarizing nature of our politics these days, Tory's solid support in the middle ground, and urgency to move on we may really end up with less transit at a greater cost. It a pure business style wedge where neither side of the debate wins. My only hope if this alignment carries forwards is they add the Lawrence stop and Smarttrack bumped to Ellesmere. Tory has already shown he'll support the Lawrence subway stop.
 
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pman said:
At least we seem to be able to agree that SSE can't be justified on cost and ridership.
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Not quite. We certainly agree on one thing with the Tory/Keesmat plan. As for ridership the subway is suitable and solid for the future. Yes LRT was also suitable for ridership but the connections on Sheppard and before SCC were not welcomed for reason discussed at length. Again not the technology and the cost could have certainly been less

Smarttrack cannibalizes ridership of the SSE and Smarttrack is not necessary at Lawrence if we are building the SSE even if it is 300M for a deep tunnel stop. We can certainly agree the cost of the McCowan corridor for one stop is certainly not justified. There was a cheaper alternative but the cheaper route is also clashing with Smarttrack on the rail corridor. Where we disagree is with the importance of "connectivity" here and what is the correct alternatives to proceed should have been.
 
OneCity said:
Not quite. We certainly agree on one thing with the Tory/Keesmat plan. As for ridership the subway is suitable and solid for the future.
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Reference?

Or, much more likely, did you just make up that statement out of thin air, as is your typical style?
 
TOareaFan said:
If it goes by Kirby, someone will justify it ;)
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Well played. ;)

While Toronto has been playing the worst internal transit Politics for decades, doing itself no favors with studies upon studies and looking for "savings". Vaughan has taking full advantage of the distraction and played one of the most stealth transit hoarding games of Politics ever.

Population 320,000.
  • 3 Major Highways within. 407, 400, and partial 427.
  • Subway extension to a previously empty City Centre.
  • Fancy separated BRT down Hwy#7
  • Recent acquisition of a lower priority GO station
  • Supporting the subway extension to regional neighbor in Richmond Hill Centre (population under 200,000k)

Smart move by Tory partnering with these guys. They have the right connections in the upper levels to get things done.
 
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