Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

There's been discussion here for years on how Sheppard ridership has increased, though has become flatter in recent years (with fluctuation due to error now making it difficult to see trends without looking at more than just a couple of years of data).

It's not Sheppard though - Sheppard's ridership changes are in line with the entire subway system. Only the SRT has dropping ridership, which is in large part because one train has been removed at rush hour, which reduces their capacity by around 600 people per hour/direction.

 

[nfitz]

It's not Sheppard though - Sheppard's ridership changes are in line with the entire subway system. Only the SRT has dropping ridership, which is in large part because one train has been removed at rush hour, which reduces their capacity by around 600 people per hour/direction.

Yes, the other 2 lines have also increased (though not as dramatically as Sheppard in the early years - but that's the classic startup curve you expect to see).

SRT - partially seems to be because of constraint. But also there seems to be a disproportionate drop in Scarborough bus ridership compared to other parts of the city - even when the SRT doesn't seem to be a factor (routes that always ran into Kennedy for example). I haven't dug too far, but the last census showed more areas with declining population in Scarborough than elsewhere (though perhaps northern Etobicoke was similiar). Also worth looking at are the long-term Scarborough employment numbers - driving through industrial Scarborough does show a lot of vacant properties, or properties that used to have larger workforces, that have been turned into facilities that are more for storage, with relatively few employees. I don't have the answers - but there's some nice research that could be done here for someone who has some time.

 

[amnesiajune]

A lot of these changes are likely related to empty-nesters - parents who no longer live with their kids, but haven't downsized there home for whatever reason. Population drops because there are only two or three people living in a family-sized house, and transit usage drops because a lot of people suddenly have the means to buy a car, or a second car, or because people are retiring.

Alexandra Park, for example, had a bigger population drop than anywhere in Scarborough, because many of the people living there either can't save money by downsizing - in public housing you can't save much money by moving to a smaller home, and in private housing the property values aren't great there. The places with stable population are generally where there's been very little new development but high property values - someone living at Yonge & Lawrence, for example, can make a ton of money by downsizing.

 

[nfitz]

I suspect though, that what you describe in Scarborough would lead to less transit usage (given the one who has left in particular, was often the only one to use transit). While similar circumstances in Alexandra Park would leave people behind still using transit. Also, not far from Alexandra Park is some huge growth.

But all very studyable factors. If only I didn't have a day job ...

 

[dowlingm]

The more probable real world example is the TYSSE which will only see 2,700 pphpd by 2031, yet it seems to be immune from criticism on UT

seems = I'm too lazy to search far enough back. TYSSE is within seven months of service running, and even for the dogged grudge holders of this board it was time to move on. However, what TYSSE and the sweet deal with York Region woke people up to is what a drain the running costs of a subway through low density can do to a transit system - concerns which have informed the SSE criticism.

 

[Sakraycore]

How Toronto goes about cap in hand hoping that the government of the day will throw us scraps to fund transit expansion is ridiculous. Other jurisdictions seem to have their act together far more than we do. How about using a combination of the HST, income and payroll tax revenues in addition to the gas tax. Or for something radical that'd truly get everything on the books built fast and with cash to spare, toll the freakin' Hwy 401 from the 403/410 to Brock Road in Pickering. Imagine the billion$ per year such a move would generate in revenue. And it wouldn't have to be permanent either, just until the grade-separated transit network is complete.

Even if a Party is too scared to make that their campaign message during an election, at least move in that direction once in power. I'm still waiting on so-called "subway champion" Mitzie Hunter to do what she was elected to do. Stop thinking about just holding onto power and actually something with it!

The problem with taxing highways like the 401 is that you're essentially taxing people who use the highway more to build subway for others. Ie taxing Scarboroughs who use the highway 401 daily but using that money to build a downtown relief line. Scarborough residents won't stand for that bullshit.

In terms of a more appropriate toll, the Gardiner Express and DVP can be tolled to raise money for DRL, and the money raised from tolling the Scarborough section of 401 should be used solely for actually building the SSE and extending it. Still, I'm not sure if this would go over well with people who never use the TTC at all, and are now forced to pay tolls on routes previously toll-free. Especially considering that the SSE doesn't offer much, and you would definately need to extend it to make the "toll" option appear more attractive.

 

[syn]

The problem with taxing highways like the 401 is that you're essentially taxing people who use the highway more to build subway for others. Ie taxing Scarboroughs who use the highway 401 daily but using that money to build a downtown relief line. Scarborough residents won't stand for that bullshit.

In terms of a more appropriate toll, the Gardiner Express and DVP can be tolled to raise money for DRL, and the money raised from tolling the Scarborough section of 401 should be used solely for actually building the SSE and extending it.

The DRL will benefit Scarborough residents as much as anyone. In fact, it's going to be a lot more beneficial than a one stop vanity extension.

What about Downtown residents who haven't seen a new subway in half a century despite funding underused suburban stations for decades? Perhaps they should just hold back funding?

 

[OneCity]

The problem with taxing highways like the 401 is that you're essentially taxing people who use the highway more to build subway for others. Ie taxing Scarboroughs who use the highway 401 daily but using that money to build a downtown relief line. Scarborough residents won't stand for that bullshit.

In terms of a more appropriate toll, the Gardiner Express and DVP can be tolled to raise money for DRL, and the money raised from tolling the Scarborough section of 401 should be used solely for actually building the SSE and extending it. Still, I'm not sure if this would go over well with people who never use the TTC at all, and are now forced to pay tolls on routes previously toll-free. Especially considering that the SSE doesn't offer much, and you would definately need to extend it to make the "toll" option appear more attractive.

This statement doesn't go well here. Some here try to sell the DRL as Gods gift to Scarborough. When at this time only a small portion of Scarborough residents benefit from the DRLs relief and they gain zero economic benefit compared to what it will bring for dowtown.

Since the City is so large maybe we also need a radius of benefit and raise propery taxes accordingly to make up the difference left from a Provincial and Federal 80% contribution.

 

[syn]

This statement doesn't go well here. Some here try to sell the DRL as Gods gift to Scarborough. When at this time only a small portion of Scarborough residents benefit from the DRL and they gain zero economic benefit compared to what it will bring for dowtown.

Maybe we also need a radius of benefit and raise propery taxes accordingly to make up the difference left from a Provincial and Federal 80% contribution.

Really?!

You've argued that Scarborough residents deserve subway connection to the core.

The DRL will provide all residents in the east, including Scarberians who 'deserve a subway connection to the core' a route downtown without having to use an overcrowded Yonge Line.

You do understand the Yonge Line is at capacity now, don't you?

 

[micheal_can]

The problem with taxing highways like the 401 is that you're essentially taxing people who use the highway more to build subway for others. Ie taxing Scarboroughs who use the highway 401 daily but using that money to build a downtown relief line. Scarborough residents won't stand for that bullshit.

In terms of a more appropriate toll, the Gardiner Express and DVP can be tolled to raise money for DRL, and the money raised from tolling the Scarborough section of 401 should be used solely for actually building the SSE and extending it. Still, I'm not sure if this would go over well with people who never use the TTC at all, and are now forced to pay tolls on routes previously toll-free. Especially considering that the SSE doesn't offer much, and you would definately need to extend it to make the "toll" option appear more attractive.

I wonder if a century ago when we first started building roads, what if there was a user charge for them just like transit fares? Would those that "would not stand for it" finally sit down and understand it is not only about them.

 

[Sakraycore]

I wonder if a century ago when we first started building roads, what if there was a user charge for them just like transit fares? Would those that "would not stand for it" finally sit down and understand it is not only about them.

Only politicians need to care about the greater good. For individuals you should just vote for what benefits yourself.

The benefit of DRL to Scarborough residents is almost negligible.

 

[OneCity]

Really?!

You've argued that Scarborough residents deserve subway connection to the core.

The DRL will provide all residents in the east, including Scarberians who 'deserve a subway connection to the core' a route downtown without having to use an overcrowded Yonge Line.

You do understand the Yonge Line is at capacity now, don't you?

You are assumimg alot. The Yonge Line needs relieved and that had zero to do with pointing out why only a small portion of Scarborough residents benefit and if Scarborough as a whole is paying a share of this expense then they should certainly be connected seamlessly to this network providing equal economic benefits to atleast its core. Otherwise maybe we need to dig deeper into who benefits locally, same goes with the SSE if the opposition doesn't want to share in the cost

If we are building the subway loop in Scarborough I can see more residents using and therefore benefiting from the relief than current situation.

Scarborough is not the problem preventing the DRL. Not having a proper long term fund, David Miller, and the downtown historically being a shoe in for the Left politically therefore not having to buy votes are more applicable factors hindering this massive investment till now.

 

[syn]

You are assumimg alot. The Yonge Line needs relieved and that had zero to dk with pointing out why was on a small portion of Scarborough residents benefit and if Scarborough as a whole is paying a share of this expenwe tha they should be connected seamlessly to this network providing equal economic benefits to atleast its core.

If we are building the subway loop in Scarborough I can see more residents using and therefore benefiting from the relief than current situation.

Right...so then why build an unnecessary, 6km, 1 stop extension?

Is it fair to assume only a small portion of Scarborough residents will benefit?

I guess we're just going to assume they're only going to use the Bloor/Danforth Line?

 

[OneCity]

Right...so then why build an unnecessary, 6km, 1 stop extension?

Is it fair to assume only a small portion of Scarborough residents will benefit?

I guess we're just going to assume they're only going to use the Bloor/Danforth Line?

You're right the SSE should be 3 to 6 stops not 1. Again your assumption Is based on short term thinking of only discussing one line without the bigger picture and the unfortunate reality that there was not a proper funding plan in place which is the root cause of this nonsense.

As long as Scarborough is paying for a share of the DRL combined with the reality we have built subways to equal or lesser City Centre locations in and outside the City, the SSE and Sheppard subways will be necessary evils and not worth fighting as delays will only cost more. The DRL benefits for Scarborough are currently not as high as you state and fighting the SSE will not help the cause in anyway but could cause an unfortunate delay

 

[syn]

You're right the SSE should be 3 to 6 stops not 1. Again your assumption Is based on short term thinking and the unfortunate reality that there is not a proper funding plan in place.

As long as Scarborough is paying for a share of the DRL combined with the reality we have built subways to equal or lesser City Centre locations in and outside the City, the SSE and Sheppard subways will be necessary evils and not worth fighting as delays will only cost more. The DRL benefits are currently not as high as you state for Scarborough and fighting the SSE will not help the cause in anyway but could cause an unfortunate delay

No, my statement is based on actual facts.

We do not have transfer free solutions to other City Centres unless you happen to be on one of those lines.

Your logic is absolutely absurd. If we factor need into the equation, residents in-and-around Sherway deserve a subway connection before Scarborough does, as they currently have nothing but bus service - or do their tax contributions not mean anything?

What about the Etobicoke Civic Centre?

How about residents all over Ontario, who's tax dollars fund Toronto transit expansion? I guess they all have a legitimate gripe too?

Here is a fact directly from a city of Toronto report:

"6% of all trips that begin in Scarborough end in the downtown, of those, 66% are made using transit "

That would seem to indicate a DRL would be very beneficial to Scarborough residents heading to the downtown core.