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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

If it goes by Kirby, someone will justify it ;)
Nintendo/HAL Laboratory would need to sponsor that stretch of subway to there.

Oh, and Kirby station would be completely pink as well, complete with artwork inspired by various Kirby video games.

A small Kirby-themed attraction can be located there to help justify its construction. It would have more plush Kirby toys than Nintendo New York!

91ryK3anWnL._SL1500_.jpg
 
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Well played. ;)

While Toronto has been playing the worst internal transit Politics for decades, doing itself no favors with studies upon studies and looking for "savings". Vaughan has taking full advantage of the distraction and played one of the most stealth transit hoarding games of Politics ever.

Population 320,000.
  • 3 Major Highways within. 407, 400, and partial 427.
  • Subway extension to a previously empty City Centre.
  • Fancy separated BRT down Hwy#7
  • Recent acquisition of a lower priority GO station
  • Supporting the subway extension to regional neighbor in Richmond Hill Centre (population under 200,000k)

Smart move by Tory partnering with these guys. They have the right connections in the upper levels to get things done.

It's embarrassing that Sorbara and Del Duca are not facing any kind of charges. Building a Go Station in the middle of nowhere in Vaughan, yet urban areas that have seen their population grow by over 20 thousand people in the last decade (think Humber Bay Shore) don't deserve rapid transit. When you say "Vaughan has taken full advantage", I say, they have taken the money from other, more dense, populated, urban, and deserving areas. It's unfortunate that politicians make decisions instead of basing these decisions around sound planning, and hard numbers and facts.
 
It's embarrassing that Sorbara and Del Duca are not facing any kind of charges. Building a Go Station in the middle of nowhere in Vaughan, yet urban areas that have seen their population grow by over 20 thousand people in the last decade (think Humber Bay Shore) don't deserve rapid transit. When you say "Vaughan has taken full advantage", I say, they have taken the money from other, more dense, populated, urban, and deserving areas. It's unfortunate that politicians make decisions instead of basing these decisions around sound planning, and hard numbers and facts.

Don't expect the Scarborough Subway Champions to agree with you.
 
It's embarrassing that Sorbara and Del Duca are not facing any kind of charges. Building a Go Station in the middle of nowhere in Vaughan, yet urban areas that have seen their population grow by over 20 thousand people in the last decade (think Humber Bay Shore) don't deserve rapid transit. When you say "Vaughan has taken full advantage", I say, they have taken the money from other, more dense, populated, urban, and deserving areas. It's unfortunate that politicians make decisions instead of basing these decisions around sound planning, and hard numbers and facts.
Surely you're not saying transit investment should have anything to do with ridership, because that's just crazy talk.
 
It's embarrassing that Sorbara and Del Duca are not facing any kind of charges. Building a Go Station in the middle of nowhere in Vaughan, yet urban areas that have seen their population grow by over 20 thousand people in the last decade (think Humber Bay Shore) don't deserve rapid transit. When you say "Vaughan has taken full advantage", I say, they have taken the money from other, more dense, populated, urban, and deserving areas. It's unfortunate that politicians make decisions instead of basing these decisions around sound planning, and hard numbers and facts.

Transit building is about politics. Always has and likely always will in a democratic society. Every single line or highway you see was mired in politics and some form of relationship or backroom deal to proceed. This City needs strong Political leaders willing to make strategic partnerships and call out those than should be helping and have been ignoring out City. We have been missing that for some time and i give Tory credit on this front.

Whats sound planning for you, isnt for others. Sound planning is also supporting, connecting and uniting people.
 
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Why isn't the Crosstown LRT extended to the STC along the SRT route and pushed out to Malvern? That would provide Scarborough riders with more rapid transit access and multiple options to travel the City with subway connections at Kennedy, Yonge, the Allen, St Dennis, and ideally at Don Mills (the future DRL). The route from Kennedy to Malvern would be dedicated, completely separate from vehicles. Wouldn't that be much more attractive to Scarberians than a single subway stop at STC on the Bloor line?
 
Why isn't the Crosstown LRT extended to the STC along the SRT route and pushed out to Malvern? That would provide Scarborough riders with more rapid transit access and multiple options to travel the City with subway connections at Kennedy, Yonge, the Allen, St Dennis, and ideally at Don Mills (the future DRL). The route from Kennedy to Malvern would be dedicated, completely separate from vehicles. Wouldn't that be much more attractive to Scarberians than a single subway stop at STC on the Bloor line?

The Bloor Line is more attractive to Scarborough for the simple fact that it routes closer to downtown than Eglinton and involves fewer stops overall. It's also grade separated the whole way versus the braindead decision not to even consider trench, tunnel, elevation or side of roadway ROW east of Brentcliffe on the Crosstown.
 
Why isn't the Crosstown LRT extended to the STC along the SRT route and pushed out to Malvern? That would provide Scarborough riders with more rapid transit access and multiple options to travel the City with subway connections at Kennedy, Yonge, the Allen, St Dennis, and ideally at Don Mills (the future DRL). The route from Kennedy to Malvern would be dedicated, completely separate from vehicles. Wouldn't that be much more attractive to Scarberians than a single subway stop at STC on the Bloor line?
Maybe you've missed the past 5 years of debates.
  1. If the at-grade Eglinton LRT was extended to STC in the SRT corridor, and also extended grade-separated to Malvern, the ridership would be too large to be accommodated on an at-grade ECLRT.
  2. The only way to get the at-grade ECLRT to work was to force passengers to transfer to the B-D line.
  3. People were grumbling about the forced transfer and the lack of connectivity of Scarborough to the rest of Toronto. That is one of the reasons that Rob Ford got elected in 2010.
  4. One solution was to grade-separate the ECLRT from Brentcliffe to Kennedy and that would allow the SRT and Malvern extension to proceed. This was the Ford-McGuinty compromise plan from 2012.
  5. The province and City council were so opposed to Ford, that they abandoned this plan in 2012 instead of find a way to improve it (i.e. elevate it from Kennedy to Don Mills). Council even proudly announced that they took back the transit file from Ford.
  6. Metrolinx even studied the plan and found it to have the best Benefit/Cost ratio. Unfortunately, Metrolinx/Provincial Liberals hid this June 2012 report until it was FOI'd in the fall of 2013 - after all sides had dug in their heels about the B-D extension.
  7. Province and many on Council realized that reverting to the LRT with forced transfer at Kennedy would lead to large objections, so in 2012/13 they resurrected the idea of extending the B-D subway to STC, even though in a 2006 TTC study it was found to be the worst choice (LRT was the second worst, and modernizing the SRT and extending to Malvern was the top choice). Realizing he had no power, Ford belatedly supported this plan.
  8. In 2014, John Tory was tired of this transit debate and decided to simply support the status quo (which was supported by council and the province) of the B-D extension.
  9. We have now had about 5 years of delay, with the B-D extension cost rising to a single stop at ~$4B, from the original estimate of 4 stations and extension to Sheppard for ~$500M extra (i.e. $2.3B)
  10. The connected SRT and (grade-separated) ECLRT would have served Scarborough better, would have helped get approval for a DRL long, and would have been less expensive than the B-D extension that is currently planned. However, the hatred of Ford was so deep that nobody would suggest going with this idea.
 
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If you ignore questions that you don't like the answer to, you abdicate any sense of credibility. Not like you had much to begin with.

And so I will answer my own question.

https://ggapss.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/numbers-dont-lie-sse-literally-worse-than-doing-nothing/

The article you referred to is totally absurd. It is amazing how the author managed to make so many mistakes in such a short text:

1) Claiming that SSE will carry fewer riders than today's SRT. Reality check: for SSE he took the boardings at STC only, while for SRT he counted all boardings. The total SSE ridership will be about twice as large as he claims.

2) Claiming - in the title - that doing nothing is better than building SSE. Reality check: SRT is beoynd its official end-of-life, and is being kept on life support. At the very least, he should have written "retrofitting SRT is better than building SSE".

3) When he proposes SRT retrofit, his cost of 0.43B would only cover retrofitting the existing line. No connection to Sheppard LRT.

4) In the text, he estimated Sheppard East LRT at $1.70B, and Eglington East LRT at $1.13B. But in the table below, he has Eglinton East LRT at $1.7B, and Sheppard East LRT at $1.13B. Is it too hard to proof-read 1 page of text?

5) Assuming his cost estimate for Sheppard East LRT is $1.13B based on the studies that are a few years old, he uses an unrealistic inflation coefficient. If the construction of Sheppard East LRT started today, it would cost at least $1.5 billion to complete.

6) Lising Sheppard East LRT as an alternative to SSE is dubious. That project has its own funding, and to date nobody proposed to transfer that funding to SSE. The reason it is not going forward is reluctance of the part of local counsillors and MPPs, not the funding shortage.
 
All through this you are engaging in a false dichotomy that assumes that having to make a transfer at Kennedy implies a lack of "connection". This similarly assumes that most people in Scarborough are single-mindedly headed downtown, even though it's been repeatedly shown that intra-Scarborough travel is predominant. There's nothing particularly special about STC and the nearby Civic Centre compared to elsewhere in Scarborough; North York's initial "downtown" development mostly occurred prior to amalgamation, so it is not really comparable.

Simply put, there is no "ideology" here. It is singularly wasteful to blow billions on a single stop when you can serve far more people in a far larger network with LRT technology. My point about Calgary is that there LRT serves an even more dispersed population, but with reasonable service (q5-10min) and through a downtown that is more developed and economically intense than STC will ever, ever be. They also manage to have a free fare zone throughout downtown.

And, really, the argument that it's somehow definitive that LRT lacks sufficient capacity is entirely specious and poorly substantiated. Given that much of Scarborough is actually quite a bit farther in distance from downtown than, for example, North York, it begs asking why better zoned fares of GO RER are not a more appropriate place to fund to ensure quick transit downtown. After all, if everyone is just interested in a one-seat ride downtown (provided they consider downtown exclusively to exist along Bloor St), why not just venture to one of Scarborough's several GO stations once RER is implemented?

Yep - and that's according to the city's own stats.

Your post should be the end of this thread - sums up everything perfectly.
 
While intra-Scarborough travel is predominant, it is accceptably served by buses, and it cannot be much improved by the single SLRT line, half of which is hidden in low-density industrial areas.

As of other LRT lines, nobody is against them. Eglinton East LRT or Finch East LRT or Centennial - Malvern Centre LRT do not draw huge support amongst the residents, but if the city builds them, hardly anybody will object.
 
"Acceptably served by buses", is it? Just like the rest of the city?

Your argument amounts to "Let them eat cake/take the bus".

Unless I suppose they live right at STC, in which case they can enjoy a one-seat ride to/from downtown... or Bloor anyway, and provided they don't happen to catch a train short-turned at Kennedy.

Billions for one subway stop. Does that sound reasonable? Is Vaughan reasonable or does it represent yet another example of the local pandering of McGuinty/Sorbara/Wynne Liberals?
 
"Acceptably served by buses", is it? Just like the rest of the city?

Your argument amounts to "Let them eat cake/take the bus".

Unless I suppose they live right at STC, in which case they can enjoy a one-seat ride to/from downtown... or Bloor anyway, and provided they don't happen to catch a train short-turned at Kennedy.

There is nothing wrong with riding a bus. I ride a bus, 2 times on most of weekdays, for many years.

Buses are a major component of the transit network. Even when several busiest corridors in the city are converted to LRT, buses will still cover 2/3 to 3/4 of street service kilometers.

That said, SSE does not block light rail expansion in Scarborough. It does not supersede any potential light rail corridor, except the one that runs through industrial areas next to the RER line.

Billions for one subway stop. Does that sound reasonable? Is Vaughan reasonable or does it represent yet another example of the local pandering of McGuinty/Sorbara/Wynne Liberals?

The cost of SSE will look very reasonable once we begin to learn the full cost of the Relief Line and of the Yonge North extension.

As of having just one stop, yes the original 3-stop plan was better, but it looks like 1 stop is all the city is willing to pay for. It will be great if the Lawrence East or Sheppard / McCowan station, or both of them, are reinstated.
 
If I understand correctly, they want this type of discussion in this other thread.

Kind of sad, that was the plan under Ford. I hated the guy when he was Mayor and thought the plan was dumb at the time. but looking at the current $6 billion Eglinton line that stops at every red light + $4 billion one-stop extension to STC now I realize how good it was. Make it ICTS to save on tunnelling costs and elevate sections of Eglinton east instead of burying it and you'd end up with enough savings to make a down payment on the DRL.

Below is the Metrolinx ridership projections for a combined SRT + Eglinton grade separated line... ridership jumps from 2700 to 9500 pphpd.

20110624ridership.jpg

If you were opposed to this plan then, then you were (are) part of the problem.

The time to work with the Ford plan was in 2012 and 2013.
Now, and even 2015, is too late and it is likely virtually impossible to revert back to the connected plan.
By abandoning the Ford plan, the people said they want either the on-street LRT or the expensive tunneled subway.
 

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