Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

No, my statement is based on actual facts.

We do not have transfer free solutions to other City Centres unless you happen to be on one of those lines.

Your logic is absolutely absurd. If we factor need into the equation, residents in-and-around Sherway deserve a subway connection before Scarborough does, as they currently have nothing but bus service - or do their tax contributions not mean anything?

What about the Etobicoke Civic Centre?

How about residents all over Ontario, who's tax dollars fund Toronto transit expansion? I guess they all have a legitimate gripe too?

Here is a fact directly from a city of Toronto report:

"6% of all trips that begin in Scarborough end in the downtown, of those, 66% are made using transit "

That would seem to indicate a DRL would be very beneficial to Scarborough residents heading to the downtown core.

Absurd is comparing SCC to Sherway both geographically, current density and more importantly intended use. Everything else has been said and your facts are based around the current inadequate network which deters Scarborough from downtown to begin with

Also by your own fact maybe 3 to 4% (66% of 6%) of Scarborough residents will benefit from the DRL at best. Way lower than even i thought which proves my point of why Scarborough doesn't gain the benefits you are trying to tell us.

Anyway. All we can do is vote.

 

[sixrings]

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlin

Haven't been here in a while and apparently I haven't missed much.

 

[syn]

Absurd is comparing SCC to Sherway both geographically, current density and more importantly intended use. Everything else has been said and your facts are based around an inadequate network which deters Scarborough from downtown.

Also by your own facts maybe 3 to 4% of Scarborough residents will benefit from the DRL at best. Way lower than even i thought which proves my point of why Scarborough doesn't gain the benefits you are trying to tell us.

Anyway. All we can do is vote.

So now density matters. As long as it's about Scarborough getting a subway, it's irrelevant...but if it's about other undeserved areas of the city, then we can't ignore it.

My facts are directly from a city report, so they are not my facts.

That same city report would indicate if so few trips that originate in Scarborough are heading downtown, then there's really no justification for building this extension at all.

There are other bigger priorities that are needed right now.

The smart move would be to let Scarborough build the density necessary to support a subway and then build a proper extension when it's actually justifiable, instead of blowing billions on a one-stop extension that can't be expanded and likely won't have the ridership to justify it's existence in our lifetimes.

 

[OneCity]

So now density matters. As long as it's about Scarborough getting a subway, it's irrelevant...but if it's about other undeserved areas of the city, then we can't ignore it.

My facts are directly from a city report, so they are not my facts.

That same city report would indicate if so few trips that originate in Scarborough are heading downtown, then there's really no justification for building this extension at all.

There are other bigger priorities that are needed right now.

The smart move would be to let Scarborough build the density necessary to support a subway and then build a proper extension when it's actually justifiable, instead of blowing billions on a one-stop extension that can't be expanded and likely won't have the ridership to justify it's existence in our lifetimes.

Everything matters. Not just density and not just the facts which support not building a better connected system. It's all be said and it's unfortunate that a one stop subway might be built but there are Politicians in the City which cant work with others and this may be the result. It certainly has a far better chance of being built than transfer LRT. Well, there were other options but with zero movement from the Transfer City crowd this is a likely result.

 

[Hopkins123]

This statement doesn't go well here. Some here try to sell the DRL as Gods gift to Scarborough. When at this time only a small portion of Scarborough residents benefit from the DRLs relief and they gain zero economic benefit compared to what it will bring for dowtown.

Since the City is so large maybe we also need a radius of benefit and raise propery taxes accordingly to make up the difference left from a Provincial and Federal 80% contribution.

The DRL is really God's gift to Old Toronto, East York and North York, but I digress.

Of what use is it to someone starting their trip from Markham Rd and Ellesmere or from Malvern. Zilch! The Bloor-Danforth cutting across to Malvern meanwhile would bring 60% of Scarborough residents within proximity to a subway.

 

[Hopkins123]

The problem with taxing highways like the 401 is that you're essentially taxing people who use the highway more to build subway for others. Ie taxing Scarboroughs who use the highway 401 daily but using that money to build a downtown relief line. Scarborough residents won't stand for that bullshit.

In terms of a more appropriate toll, the Gardiner Express and DVP can be tolled to raise money for DRL, and the money raised from tolling the Scarborough section of 401 should be used solely for actually building the SSE and extending it. Still, I'm not sure if this would go over well with people who never use the TTC at all, and are now forced to pay tolls on routes previously toll-free. Especially considering that the SSE doesn't offer much, and you would definately need to extend it to make the "toll" option appear more attractive.

You're misunderstanding what I was saying. Tolling the 401 would be big enough of a cash cow that it could finance all transit projects for over a generation. That means the DRL from northwest Etobicoke through Keele/Parkside, across Queen and up Pape/Don Mills to Seneca College plus the Crosstown extended from Pearson to UTSC plus the Bloor-Danforth from Square One to Morningside Hts. And the YUS reaches Major McKenzie on both sides. Maybe even Sheppard Subway from Weston Rd to Scarborough Ctr.

Read this excerpt from Wikipedia:
"It is one of the world's busiest highways;[6] a 2008 analysis stated the annual average daily traffic (AADT) count between Weston Road and Highway 400 in Toronto was approximately 450,000,[2] while a second study estimate over 500,000 vehicles travel that section on some days.[5] This makes it North America's busiest roadway, surpassing the Santa Monica Freeway in Los Angeles and I-75 in Atlanta."

Think about it. Charging a flat rate $5 daily toll (nothing outrageous like the per km Hwy 407 toll) times 500,000 drivers produces $2 million per day in revenue. That's $912 million per year. With that kind of money at our disposal coupled with whatever the Feds chip in, all of the above I that highlighted could be built within 25 years. We just need to rip off the band-aid and do it.

 

[syn]

The DRL is really God's gift to Old Toronto, East York and North York, but I digress.

Of what use is it to someone starting their trip from Markham Rd and Ellesmere or from Malvern. Zilch! The Bloor-Danforth cutting across to Malvern meanwhile would bring 60% of Scarborough residents within proximity to a subway.

The Bloor-Danforth is never going to hit Malvern with the current plan in place, certainly not in our lifetimes.

Are you aware that the Yonge Line is already over capacity? That the DRL is desperately needed to alleviate a system bursting at the seams? It should've been built decades ago.

It's not about making sure anyone can get from point A to point B with a subway. That's a poor rationale for building transit.

Markham Road and Ellesmere isn't dense enough to justify a subway. Scarborough isn't as a whole, and population trends indicate a decline.

The DRL will benefit everyone. It will benefit Scarborough residents who won't need to take the Yonge Line south. If it goes up to Don Mills, it will also give plenty of Scarborough residents access to a direct ride downtown without having to use the Yonge Line.

It's incredibly short-sighted to discount the project because people at Markham and Ellesmere won't have direct access.

 

[rbt]

That's $912 million per year.

Chump change. The province budgeted around $11B for roadway and transit spending in the 2017/2018 year. That doesn't include federal/municipal contributions to those projects either.

 

[OneCity]

The Bloor-Danforth is never going to hit Malvern with the current plan in place, certainly not in our lifetimes.

Are you aware that the Yonge Line is already over capacity? That the DRL is desperately needed to alleviate a system bursting at the seams? It should've been built decades ago.

It's not about making sure anyone can get from point A to point B with a subway. That's a poor rationale for building transit.

Markham Road and Ellesmere isn't dense enough to justify a subway. Scarborough isn't as a whole, and population trends indicate a decline.

The DRL will benefit everyone. It will benefit Scarborough residents who won't need to take the Yonge Line south. If it goes up to Don Mills, it will also give plenty of Scarborough residents access to a direct ride downtown without having to use the Yonge Line.

It's incredibly short-sighted to discount the project because people at Markham and Ellesmere won't have direct access.

There is a plan for Markham and Ellesmere and its already underway its a BRT. There is a bigger plan surround the the SSE but you seem to think it all ends here. You already cited a fact indicating only 3-4% of Scarborough residents at best are affected by the DRL. Even then that 3-4% most likely have a seat already and dont share the concerns as urgently. Your facts dont support your own argument here.

I agree the DRL will serve a worthwhile purpose I just dont see what it has to do with this project and what you are trying to achieve going on about the DRL here? I mean I get you are upset its not funded yet, but thats not Scarborough's issue nor anything they can help with above what funding will soon be expected. And even then that only happens willingly if the subways are built to integrate the Main growth hub at SCC. Its up to the Province to step up.

 

[syn]

There is a plan for Markham and Ellesmere and its already underway its a BRT. There is a bigger plan surround the the SSE but you seem to think it all ends here. You already cited a fact indicating only 3-4% of Scarborough residents at best is affected by the DRL. Even then that 3-4% most likely have a seat already and dont share the concerns as urgently. Your facts dont support your own argument here and although I agree the DRL will serve a worthwhile purpose I dont see what it has to do with this project and what you are trying to achieve going on about the DRL?

You missed my point, entirely.

That the DRL doesn't directly impact riders at Markham and Ellesmere is completely irrelevant.

It benefits the entire system, and dramatically so.

It's the only project that's an absolute necessity right now.

Ignoring the DRL in favour of suburban extensions that can't justify their existence is like adding an unneeded 3rd floor to your house when the foundation is already collapsing.

As for facts, you seem to be ignoring that there isn't a very large percentage of transit users originating in Scarborough heading downtown, which renders your 'Scarborough deserves a direct connection to the downtown core' argument irrelevant.

An upgraded RT would do the trick nicely.

 

[OneCity]

You missed my point, entirely.

That the DRL doesn't directly impact riders at Markham and Ellesmere is completely irrelevant.

It benefits the entire system, and dramatically so.

It's the only project that's an absolute necessity right now.

Ignoring the DRL in favour of suburban extensions that can't justify their existence is like adding an unneeded 3rd floor to your house when the foundation is already collapsing.

As for facts, you seem to be ignoring that there isn't a very large percentage of transit users originating in Scarborough heading downtown, which renders your 'Scarborough deserves a direct connection to the downtown core' argument irrelevant.

An upgraded RT would do the trick nicely.

No one is ignoring the DRL from Scarborough's perspective
This is not the DRL thread
Scarborough is not heavily impacted by the DRL
Upgrading the RT may sound neat but its not supported by residents for many reasons
RT tech.is not what is built to equal or lesser areas in and out of the City
Residents dont use public transit to go downtown because its a nuisance & inconvenient.
SSE is going back to the start to fix the mistake and lay a better foundation to build upon
The Eglinton East LRT and extension(s) will be great for local trips
The Scarb-Durham BRT will be great to feed into SCC
Sheppard will likely complete the loop of a great long term plan


Facts can be used may ways. But the reality is in the vote and its pretty clear your fight is not going to end well or help your cause.

 

[Sakraycore]

You're misunderstanding what I was saying. Tolling the 401 would be big enough of a cash cow that it could finance all transit projects for over a generation. That means the DRL from northwest Etobicoke through Keele/Parkside, across Queen and up Pape/Don Mills to Seneca College plus the Crosstown extended from Pearson to UTSC plus the Bloor-Danforth from Square One to Morningside Hts. And the YUS reaches Major McKenzie on both sides. Maybe even Sheppard Subway from Weston Rd to Scarborough Ctr.

Read this excerpt from Wikipedia:
"It is one of the world's busiest highways;[6] a 2008 analysis stated the annual average daily traffic (AADT) count between Weston Road and Highway 400 in Toronto was approximately 450,000,[2] while a second study estimate over 500,000 vehicles travel that section on some days.[5] This makes it North America's busiest roadway, surpassing the Santa Monica Freeway in Los Angeles and I-75 in Atlanta."

Think about it. Charging a flat rate $5 daily toll (nothing outrageous like the per km Hwy 407 toll) times 500,000 drivers produces $2 million per day in revenue. That's $912 million per year. With that kind of money at our disposal coupled with whatever the Feds chip in, all of the above I that highlighted could be built within 25 years. We just need to rip off the band-aid and do it.

No misunderstandings here, I just don't get the idea of tolling 401 to finance "all" transportation projects, when you could toll Gardiner and/or DVP for the DRL, and say the Scarborough section of the 401 for the SSE.

With your suggestion of tolling the 401 in order to finance "all" transportation projects, I would rather SSE not get built at all.

 

[OneCity]

How about I split this into two threads? One where OneCity and Sakraycore argue with a few other people, and another thread for everything else?

Well if a "few other posters" could use the DRL thread to discuss DRL and we open up a Anti Scarborough subway thread for those who cant move on to the subway to vent than I don't think myself or @Sakraycore would have much to argue about here.

 

[pstogios]

How about I split this into two threads? One where OneCity and Sakraycore argue with a few other people, and another thread for everything else?

I think this is a wonderful idea.

It's clear that Coffey/OneCity is the Resident Troll in this thread and he has commandeered it nearly entirely for his baseless inanity. This thread for YEARS NOW has been purely arguments refuting his ridiculously uninformed illogical and paranoid claims, while the rest of us who are interested in informed debate are left in the cold.

Mods, what's the point of this thread if it's just this endless cycle of OneCity says something selfishly stupid and then someone else (it used to be me, now it is syn) refutes his obvious foolishness?

Seriously - Mods, what are you going to do about that? Do you care about this community or not?

 

[ttk77]

He isn't the only one. This whole thread is one big circular argument on both sides of the issue.

It really would be nice if we had one thread for project updates and one for discussion. There's too much repetition to sift through to keep up to speed with what's actually happening on the project.