Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[dowlingm]

It seems to me that a perfectly valid answer to the question "subway or LRT" could be "both", if we have the ambition to really jack up the modal share of transit in that neighbourhood. The numbers suggest that subway will attract a higher ridership from the smaller eastern catchment (presumably because of feed from eastern Scarborough and Durham which would otherwise head straight to BD at Kennedy) but the corollary of that is that an extended BD puts more pressure on Yonge/Bloor as Richmond Hill extension does, especially since the foundations of adjacent buildings mean the single platform is an even more expensive and difficult issue to resolve than Union 2nd Platform. That said, the numbers that suggested that said the LRT was 2.3bn and the subway 2.8bn, whereas the TTC have now admitted that the actual cost of the SRT replacement as LRT is 1.8bn because they counted the same yard construction cost twice.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

The Scarborough Subway is dead:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/ontario-not-interested-in-toronto-subway-extension-minister-says/article11816603/#dashboard/follows/thestar.com

 

[Johnny Au]

Bonus points if you can tell me the former name of the Don Montgomery Community and Recreation Centre.

It was the Mid-Scarborough Community and Recreation Centre I believe.

 

[Electrify]

Many of the maps I see duplicate east-west coverage in North York and Scarborough due to the existence of the Sheppard subway and the current orientation of the SRT. Those maps have never made sense to me because it spreads out the ridership even more thinly and often don't provide good connections. It seems important to me to have subways end at hubs, and for routes to radiate from those end points so I created this map to simplify north Toronto.

Though that may belong in another thread, IT. IS. BRILLIANT!!! For all the time I've let my OCD try and come up with a solution for North York's transit connectivity, I cannot believe I never considered such a design! From here on in, whenever I draw a fantasy subway map, it is going to use this arrangement.

Even cooler is that they would be tunnelling underneath the house I lived in when I was 5 years old.

 

[Electrify]

I realize that both are accurate. But saying that it's a subway in a ROW would have been better politics for Miller.

LRT is basically a surface subway. Transit City has more in common with a European tramway than a LRT, the former which is not quite as good as a subway but faster than North American local service.

I use the term "North American local service" because in Europe and other places around the world, local service looks more like Transit City than what we have here which stops at every other block. In fact, seeing as tram is essentially the European word for streetcar, European tramways are essentially their versions of St Clair and Spadina.

Confused yet?

 

[ShonTron]

It was the Mid-Scarborough Community and Recreation Centre I believe.

Hot dog! We have a wiener!

The point I was trying to make is that Scarborough has three subway stops. Ideally, yes, I would have like to see the subway extension built, especially back in 2003-2005 when the idea had momentum and Transit City wasn't even a napkin sketch.

Kennedy/Eglinton itself is at least a decent transit hub, with GO (which should be in line for major improvements), BD, SRT/SLRT, ECLRT and hopefully a resurrection of the Eglinton East/UTSC corridor. The focus should perhaps shift to direct intensification around there.

 

[junior43]

The Scarborough Subway is dead:

Not anywhere near dead. Wynne's in a minority with the taint of McGuinty still lingering and going nowhere. Horvath keeps extorting her for more out of her budget, and Hudak (somehow) is 10 points ahead of the Liberal's.

Nevermind the fact, Wynne's basically running on a platform of 'I'm going to raise your taxes (again)'

Don't forget, two weeks before the last election, the gas plant in Mississauga wasn't going anywhere either. There's a whole lot more to play out still........

 

[Electrify]

To me the whole reason to extend the Bloor-Danforth is that Scarborough Centre is the "places to grow" hub. It is where the Durham BRT will terminate, it is where GO buses stop, it is a centre. Kennedy station is nowhere of significance. I don't dislike Transit City, I think the whole of Eglinton doesn't need a subway so putting in a pre-metro of sorts makes sense to eliminate transfers, I don't think Sheppard East needs a subway (it is unfortunate the Sheppard subway exists for this reason), I don't think Finch West needs a subway, and I think Kingston road and Don Mills need transit improvements. But Scarborough Centre is the hub, not Kennedy, and the SRT needs replacement... so why wouldn't it be subway?

Another excellent point, though this is one I have thought about - if not posted here. As-is, Scarborough Centre is one of the most disconnected centres in the PTGA. North York and midtown will be directly connected with the Yonge line to downtown, while Etobicoke Centre is connected to the north end of downtown by the Bloor-Danforth line. The only centre Scarborough will be connected to is Pickering and Oshawa, and the distance for those trips are long enough that an express connection would be more attractive. It also means that those using rapid transit to get into Toronto from Durham will be faced with an extra transfer, versus those from York and Peel.

Despite the numerous flaws with Ford's plan, I never thought it got credit where it deserved. One of its benefits is that it would in fact work better with the PTGA, in that Scarborough would be connected to midtown. Perhaps it would be best to simply bite the bullet and have the E-C line operate with the SRT and pray that Yonge-Eglinton doesn't collapse under the weight of all the people wanting to transfer...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not anywhere near dead. Wynne's in a minority with the taint of McGuinty still lingering and going nowhere. Horvath keeps extorting her for more out of her budget, and Hudak (somehow) is 10 points ahead of the Liberal's.

Link to polls?

Latest ones I've seen showed Libs and Cons in a dead tie.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If the subway is a go then it has to go to McCowan/Steeles. Let's be honest we have to cover the entire borough.

 

[junior43]

Tiger - you may be right, the poll I was referencing was probably 10-14 days old and haven't seen a recent one, I was out of town for a while. It surprised me at the time because Hudak's always been so distasteful to so many people. With anyone else in charge (except with a last name of Harris), they probably would have won the last election.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Tiger - you may be right, the poll I was referencing was probably 10-14 days old and haven't seen a recent one, I was out of town for a while. It surprised me at the time because Hudak's always been so distasteful to so many people. With anyone else in charge (except with a last name of Harris), they probably would have won the last election.

The thing is people are hypocrites. The same ones complaining about Dalton are the one who cried when Mike cut everything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why not trade a Scarborough subway for a LRT project? Build the BD line to STC and put LRT on Kingston Road and Islington out west. Win Win.

 

[junior43]

The thing is people are hypocrites. The same ones complaining about Dalton are the one who cried when Mike cut everything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why not trade a Scarborough subway for a LRT project? Build the BD line to STC and put LRT on Kingston Road and Islington out west. Win Win.

Well, I'm not a hypocrit, I didn't mind Harris, he did a lot of what he did because he had to to save money and balance the budget, and I hated Dalton from day 1. I have to admit though, Harris should have cancelled the Sheppard subway and continued with Eglinton instead.

Do you mean extend on Eglinton the crosstown to Kingston rd and continue East from there? That may work but getting the LRT and car traffic to flow properly at that intersection would be a challenge. Find a way to take it up to the Zoo then connect to the Finch or sheppard LRT (eventually) would also be a plus of this plan.

Scarborough won't like anything until you bury some version of transit for them. They feel neglectled and rightfully so. All they had for decades is 2 stops on the subway (3 if you count Vic Park, but it's on the boundary of both) and zero streetcar lines. Heck, Bingham and Neville loops basically stop at the border. Sure they got the SRT 30+ years ago, but it's now been neglected for so long, it could be out of commission for 3 years while it's converted to something else.

Scarborough has been starved for transit for decades, and basically been forced to drive. Now all they're getting is the crosstown down the middle of Eglinton, and taking away 2 lanes for cars. I can totally understand why the citizens and councillors are now pushing for the subway extension - and why they wanted the crosstown buried.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

LRT is basically a surface subway. Transit City has more in common with a European tramway than a LRT, the former which is not quite as good as a subway but faster than North American local service.

I use the term "North American local service" because in Europe and other places around the world, local service looks more like Transit City than what we have here which stops at every other block. In fact, seeing as tram is essentially the European word for streetcar, European tramways are essentially their versions of St Clair and Spadina.

Confused yet?

I hate these qualitative methods of classifying transit. You can call an LRT a streetcar in a ROW, or a surface subway. You can argue that it's rapid transit since it can operate faster than subways in the correct circumstance or you could argue that it's not rapid transit because it's not grade separated. And of course, there's the debate as to what exactly an LRT is. In some places, an LRV in a ROW is a streetcar or tramway and an LRT is somehow grade separated. In other places, LRTs are basically the same thing as subways in this city. And here in Toronto, LRT is an LRV that runs fully separated from traffic. I hope everyone is able to see the issue. All of these qualitative definitions are technically correct.

What we really need is some kind of standardized quantitative measurement of what transit is. Ideally, it should be based on how fast the average speed is. For example, Class 1 300 km/h, Class 2 200 km/h, Class 3 150 km/h etc... After all, transit is about moving people, not about whether or not it's RT, uses heavy or light rail or is grade separated.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tiger - you may be right, the poll I was referencing was probably 10-14 days old and haven't seen a recent one, I was out of town for a while. It surprised me at the time because Hudak's always been so distasteful to so many people. With anyone else in charge (except with a last name of Harris), they probably would have won the last election.

I can't find the poll with the 10 point lead in any media sources.

The latest and most in depth one I see is from NP. Shows support for Conservatives and Libs at a statistical tie, but that the Liberals would carry more than enough ridings to win reelection.