Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Solid Snake]

Has there been any type of preliminary design for the Yonge-Eg station. Will both Yonge and Eg have centre platform or has there been any disussion of adding extra side platforms.

I am guessing the 13,000 pphpd is just east of Yonge - how many of those would be transferring to Yonge?

Lots of them would stay on the trains until Eglinton West to go downtown to avoid watching overcrowded trains pass through while they wait for a 3/4 full train to arrive. Bay St is right in the middle of both Yonge and University lines after all

 

[SJD_Toronto]

I think it will be a close vote on the contrary. Even the pro-LRT are warming up to the idea. Councillor Berardinetti's case was good.

I just don't see a Bloor-Danforth extension winning in the end. I want to see the subway plan win in the end, but I think the LRT will win. The LRT plan is still a very good plan, no doubt, but I think the subway to Scarborough Centre and McCowan would be the best in the end.

 

[44 North]

Ah, I love that photo SolidSnake posted. It's nice seeing rapid transit run above-ground with greenery and leafy foliage alongside it. I'm in favour of the current SRT plan, and foresee elevated really making a mark in Toronto as a result of the upgrade (as should've been the case when it was originally built). I was driving by the SRT near Brimley yesterday, and noticed how unobtrusive the elevated structure is. With better technology, they can be even less so... run down the centre of Eglinton West and East, using boulevards and hydro corridors, some kind of northern crosstown route...elevated really is the future. And the LRT mode is clearly the right choice due to the capability to interline with street ROW lines.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What's wrong with the Scarborough RT that it needs replacement? Could we just order or build some new cars that run on the current system or replace whatever is worn out? If those cars aren't available, can we modify what is available to run on the system as is?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I know, I was being sarcastic

Some people in this forum are just allergic to the idea of having Scarborough connected to the rest of the city by rapid transit

Why the hell would you want Scarborough to have access to transit. I don't want Scarbarians to contaminate the system for the rest of us.

I propose this plan

1. Rob Ford's Nightmere

Every one of the lines shown on the maps are a mixed traffic streetcar line. I recommend that the TTC order plenty of Cold War era, extra long streetcars that will sufficiently clog up Scarborough streets and block Rob Ford's SUV. I chose Cold War era vehicles to ensure that they'll break down often, especially at intersections.

2. Isolation Plan

Once approved by council, any existing rapid transit in scarborough will be blown up. Bus fares within the area will rise to $15 per trip. Any highway onramps will be removed. And roads east of Victoria Park will be torn up, to ensure that nobody within Scarborough can drive into Toronto.

Now, I understand that some may be concered about Scarbarians crossing over Victoria Park and using our rapid transit. But I have a solution! From now on, anybody who wished to ride the TTC will have to show ID to prove that they don't live in Scarborough. If you provide this proof, you pay standard fare. But if you're from Scarborough, you pay $50 /km traveled.

Any questions?

And yes, I'm being sarcastic. Sarcasm seems to fly over the heads of some people on UT.

 

[44 North]

What's wrong with the Scarborough RT that it needs replacement? Could we just order or build some new cars that run on the current system or replace whatever is worn out? If those cars aren't available, can we modify what is available to run on the system as is?

I'm sure it's been answered many of times here, but lemme try my hand at it. I'm a layman when it comes to this, but let's see how much I know:

-the current cars are at the end of their life, and aren't manufactured anymore
-modifying to Mark II - larger and more universal vehicles - is plausible, but would require reinforcing/modifying the structure/stations for size and weight(?)
-upgrading the structure for LRT is much costlier due to the weights involved, but thus allows for interlining with other routes (Eg, SELRT, Malvern, etc)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The City manager says it will require a 2/3 majority to re-open the master agreement. The Scarborough Subway is pretty much a non-starter.

Metrolinx already said no to modification already. Has their position now changed?

The TTC CEO said re-opening the master agreement to change the LRT to Subway will stop all work on Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

That is unacceptable. Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard need to begin construction ASAP or we'll risk losing Sheppard East and Finch West if Hudak finds a way to get elected. The Scarborough subway is a great idea, but it cannot come at the price of two of our LRT lines. Especially when the subway has only marginal benefits over the SRT reconstruction.

 

[Rainforest]

Has there been any type of preliminary design for the Yonge-Eg station. Will both Yonge and Eg have centre platform or has there been any disussion of adding extra side platforms.

I am guessing the 13,000 pphpd is just east of Yonge - how many of those would be transferring to Yonge?

Frankly, I do not know how many will be transferring to Yonge versus continuing further west.

Although it certainly matters for the Yonge-Eglinton station design, let's not forget that the line capacity is a constraint, too. Whether they are transferring or continuing west, they have to fit into the trains in the first place.

The design capacity of Eglinton LRT is 150 people per car, or 450 per train. On 2 min headways, you can have 30 trains per hour, that leads to 13,500 pphpd at most. Perhaps 15,000 can be reached if 500 people fit into the train, or if the headways are a bit shorter than 2 min. But anything beyond 15,000 will definitely be a challenge.

 

[Rainforest]

The TTC CEO said re-opening the master agreement to change the LRT to Subway will stop all work on Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

This is a rather strange concept. There is no provision in the civil law that if one party proposes an amendment to an agreement, the other party must immediately stop all work based on such agreement, including those parts that are not affected by the proposed amendment.

Metrolinx already said no to modification already. Has their position now changed?

I would speculate that Metrolinx does not want Scarborough Subway, as it would increase their delay / cost overrun risks.

However, they might reluctantly accept Scarborough Subway if they feel that it considerably boosts the public support for transit taxes.

That is unacceptable. Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard need to begin construction ASAP or we'll risk losing Sheppard East and Finch West if Hudak finds a way to get elected. The Scarborough subway is a great idea, but it cannot come at the price of two of our LRT lines. Especially when the subway has only marginal benefits over the SRT reconstruction.

If Hudak wins majority, Sheppard East and Finch West are almost guaranteed to be chopped, agreement in force or not.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If Hudak wins majority, Sheppard East and Finch West are almost guaranteed to be chopped, agreement in force or not.

The Libs will hold onto power till 2016 as long as the NDP are low in the polls so they won't call an election. Thankfully if an election were held today, the Cons winning an election, let alone a majority is far from assured. I know it's a longshot, but the Liberals may be able to hold onto power past 2016 if there aren't any controversies.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When is Council voting on this? Wasn't it supposed to be this week?

 

[EnviroTO]

To me the whole reason to extend the Bloor-Danforth is that Scarborough Centre is the "places to grow" hub. It is where the Durham BRT will terminate, it is where GO buses stop, it is a centre. Kennedy station is nowhere of significance. I don't dislike Transit City, I think the whole of Eglinton doesn't need a subway so putting in a pre-metro of sorts makes sense to eliminate transfers, I don't think Sheppard East needs a subway (it is unfortunate the Sheppard subway exists for this reason), I don't think Finch West needs a subway, and I think Kingston road and Don Mills need transit improvements. But Scarborough Centre is the hub, not Kennedy, and the SRT needs replacement... so why wouldn't it be subway?

 

[SJD_Toronto]

If Hudak wins majority, Sheppard East and Finch West are almost guaranteed to be chopped, agreement in force or not.

Not only would Tim Hudak, Doug Ford (you know he'll probably be elected as an MPP) and all the other Tories stop the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT, they'll make the Sheppard Subway extension the number one subway priority for Toronto, not a DRL. Hell, if the Tories got a Sheppard Subway extension done, they would probably do something stupid like look at a Finch West subway... with MPP Doug Ford, Minister of Transportation leading the way... Hahaha.

 

[DavidH]

I'm sure it's been answered many of times here, but lemme try my hand at it. I'm a layman when it comes to this, but let's see how much I know:

-the current cars are at the end of their life, and aren't manufactured anymore
-modifying to Mark II - larger and more universal vehicles - is plausible, but would require reinforcing/modifying the structure/stations for size and weight(?)
-upgrading the structure for LRT is much costlier due to the weights involved, but thus allows for interlining with other routes (Eg, SELRT, Malvern, etc)

Re Mark II, that's part of it, but it's also that because the cars are longer, the existing north-to-east curve on the line isn't traversable by the new vehicles, so a significant rebuild would be required.

As for LRT, interlining and a common fleet is one reason. The ability to run extensions on the street if desired is another. The third, and perhaps most important, is to move to a standard vehicle type and away from being locked in to one manufacturer.

Key takeaway here is that TTC will need to shut down the line at some point relatively soon (in transit planning terms) even if we choose to do nothing in terms of conversion - and without a conversion plan, the line won't ever be restarted.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not only would Tim Hudak, Doug Ford (you know he'll probably be elected as an MPP) and all the other Tories stop the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT, they'll make the Sheppard Subway extension the number one subway priority for Toronto, not a DRL. Hell, if the Tories got a Sheppard Subway extension done, they would probably do something stupid like look at a Finch West subway... with MPP Doug Ford, Minister of Transportation leading the way... Hahaha.

Why are the PCs so incredibly irresponsible when it comes to transit issues? I don't get it. It seems like their position on transit is to take whatever all the transit experts are saying and do the complete opposite.

-Experts say that Eglinton West should have a subway instead of Sheppard. What do the PCs do? Put a subway on Sheppard.
-Experts say that SELRT is a far better plan than extending Sheppard Subway. But the PCs want to extend Shepperd East
-Experts say the Transit City plan is far superior than Rob Ford's "subway" plan. But the PCs insist on going with the Ford plan.

I just don't see the logic behind it. The fact that the Progressive Conservative Party consistently stands in the way of progress is disgusting. We're losing $6 Billion annually because of transit issues and the PC position is to do everything possible to ensure that transit dosen't improve in any meaningful way.

They need to stop being the party of populist idiots and start being Progressive Conservative again. Then maybe I'll think of voting for them.