Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[rbt]

My understanding is that the subway would not need a new carhouse, either. According to the same post, TTC will have a surplus of T1 trains once the YUS line is fully converted to TR and automatic operation.

Correct. There is an immediate capital savings by using existing subway infrastructure and surplus T1 rolling stock. This is why the subway option is only $1B more than the LRT option and not closer to $1.3B more.

 

[Rainforest]

There is an immediate capital savings by using existing subway infrastructure and surplus T1 rolling stock. This is why the subway option is only $1B more than the LRT option and not closer to $1.3B more.

There are two pairs of reports. One puts the SLRT option at $1.8 B and the subway option at $2.3 B. The other puts SLRT at $2.3 B and the subway at $2.8 B (the latter pair likely includes carhouses for both projects, at $500 million each).

So, if we assume the the first pair of reports is the most accurate, the difference is about $0.5 B.

 

[Rainforest]

I found in the DRTES Final Report (2012), the ridership on the B-D just before Yonge is 22,600 now, in 2031 will be 30,700. This decreases to 25,300 when the DRL is built to Pape and 24,700 when the DRL is built to Eglinton.

DRTES also says that the transfers from B-D at Yonge is 6,400 now, in 2031 will be 9,200. This decreases to 5,700 when the DRL is built to Pape and 5,400 if built to Eglinton. Thus, the DRL would make things about 15% better than today in terms of trasfers.

So it seems that about 40% (9200/22,600) of passengers transfer at Yonge. If we say that 8,000 passengers come down the SRT corridor in 2031and stay on the Eglinton line, this would make transfers at Yonge = 3,200 and it would would mean that 6,000 (9,200 - 3,200) would transfer at Eglinton. There would also be some trasnfers at Yonge/Eglinton from those boarding in Leaside, but I have a harder time quantifying this. I think overall this is a pretty balanced split, which I think is exactly what is needed. If needed, it is also probably much easier to improve the Yonge-Eglinton Station than the Yonge-Bloor one since space is not as tight. Of course when the DRL is built it is much easier to make the new Don Mills / Eglinton station to be a major transfer station than to do it with an existing Pape station.

You are assuming the DRL will reach the Don Mills / Eglinton hub.

Although such extension is sensible from the network perspective, we cannot presume that it will be funded.

Otherwise, we will have a problem on Eglinton LRT approaching Yonge. The Metrolinx peak projection for the combined, fully grade-separate Eglinton - SRT line is 13,000 pphpd, which is pretty close to the capacity limit of Eglinton LRT design.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Danforth Scarborough Subway option. The Danforth subway line has more capacity than Eglinton LRT, and won't choke.

 

[Rainforest]

Didn't see that one in the Metrolinx report. Keeping the line at Grade and separated from the RT is the best solution since less riders from Scarborough will want to use it. Makes sense

I understand your irony. But, first of all, operational limitations have to be taken into account, not ignored. If the goal was to redirect the downtown-bound riders from Scarborough via Eglinton, then the Eglinton line should have been designed with a higher capacity limit from the onset.

Secondly, there exists an alternative option that will give Scarberiams an equally convenient access downtown, and will not choke the system. That's Scarborough subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You are assuming the DRL will reach the Don Mills / Eglinton hub.

Although such extension is sensible from the network perspective, we cannot presume that it will be funded.

Otherwise, we will have a problem on Eglinton LRT approaching Yonge. The Metrolinx peak projection for the combined, fully grade-separate Eglinton - SRT line is 13,000 pphpd, which is pretty close to the capacity limit of Eglinton LRT design.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Danforth Scarborough Subway option. The Danforth subway line has more capacity than Eglinton LRT, and won't choke.

The city will pick up the slack once the new taxes come through,

 

[smallspy]

Correct. There is an immediate capital savings by using existing subway infrastructure and surplus T1 rolling stock. This is why the subway option is only $1B more than the LRT option and not closer to $1.3B more.

Well, except for the $7mil per km per year figure to maintain underground infrastructure. By hey, why let facts get in the way of our dreams?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Sherway can be served by a Long Branch to Airport RT, and it would be great for scooping up Mississauga routes and provide rapid transit to an underserved corridor.

 

[rbt]

Well, except for the $7mil per km per year figure to maintain underground infrastructure.

Yes, long-term underground infrastructure costs more. I think it's actually higher than this. The $7mil/km figure was across all subway infrastructure, some of which is not underground.

By hey, why let facts get in the way of our dreams?

It's not my dream. I'm pretty happy with what Metrolinx has as their official plan.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

The City manager says it will require a 2/3 majority to re-open the master agreement. The Scarborough Subway is pretty much a non-starter.

The TTC CEO said re-opening the master agreement to change the LRT to Subway will stop all work on Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

(From Twitter)

 

[smallspy]

Yes, long-term underground infrastructure costs more. I think it's actually higher than this. The $7mil/km figure was across all subway infrastructure, some of which is not underground.

No, the $7mil/km figure came from TTC and was in regards to a direct question about tunnelled infrastructure. Thus, new ones cost less per kilometre, but this also means that the older ones (say, under Yonge and University) cost more.

It's not my dream. I'm pretty happy with what Metrolinx has as their official plan.

Fair enough, although admittedly the comment wasn't directed at you.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ShonTron]

Some people in this forum are just allergic to the idea of having Scarborough connected to the rest of the city by rapid transit

Huh?

Please tell me where the intersection of Kennedy and Eglinton is located. (The smart ass answer might be Mississauga, but never mind that.) Bonus points if you can tell me the former name of the Don Montgomery Community and Recreation Centre.

I don't get the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument. I am sympathetic to the idea of an extension via Eglinton/McCowan for various reasons, but the LRT replacement of the SRT won't be a Transit City line, it will be a full, grade separated, rapid transit line to Sheppard and Progress.

 

[Solid Snake]

Huh?

Please tell me where the intersection of Kennedy and Eglinton is located. (The smart ass answer might be Mississauga, but never mind that.) Bonus points if you can tell me the former name of the Don Montgomery Community and Recreation Centre.

Did I hit a nerve?

I don't get the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument.
I am sympathetic to the idea of an extension via Eglinton/McCowan for various reasons, but the LRT replacement of the SRT won't be a Transit City line, it will be a full, grade separated, rapid transit line to Sheppard and Progress.

I obviously did. Please, please help me find the sentence where I'm remotely talking about subways... I said rapid transit. Looking at your "over" reaction to my post, you sound like someone who think that rapid transit can only be subways... It that a subtle way to admit that the LRT at grade are not rapid transit?

I actually always agreed with the LRT replacing the RT. I was referring to the Scarborough portion of the Eglinton line. I always advocated for that section to be elevated for increase speed and reliability. I was just taking a shot a some people who are adamant at keeping that portion at grade, hence not rapid transit.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Watching Toronto city council debate, it's clear a Bloor-Danforth extension push is going to die on the council floor. Scarborough will get LRT.

 

[BurlOak]

You are assuming the DRL will reach the Don Mills / Eglinton hub.

Although such extension is sensible from the network perspective, we cannot presume that it will be funded.

Otherwise, we will have a problem on Eglinton LRT approaching Yonge. The Metrolinx peak projection for the combined, fully grade-separate Eglinton - SRT line is 13,000 pphpd, which is pretty close to the capacity limit of Eglinton LRT design.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the Danforth Scarborough Subway option. The Danforth subway line has more capacity than Eglinton LRT, and won't choke.

Has there been any type of preliminary design for the Yonge-Eg station. Will both Yonge and Eg have centre platform or has there been any disussion of adding extra side platforms.

I am guessing the 13,000 pphpd is just east of Yonge - how many of those would be transferring to Yonge?

 

[Solid Snake]

Watching Toronto city council debate, it's clear a Bloor-Danforth extension push is going to die on the council floor. Scarborough will get LRT.

I think it will be a close vote on the contrary. Even the pro-LRT are warming up to the idea. Councillor Berardinetti's case was good.

LRT Corridor

Subway on McCowan Corridor extending the growth to Sheppard Ave

Where would a rapid transit line would be most positive in term of growth?


PS; Cllr Matlow should have an anger management class