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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 205 71.2%

  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 13 4.5%

  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 31 10.8%

  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 22 7.6%

  • Other

    Votes: 17 5.9%
  • Total voters
    288
raptor said:
The people mover option is dead
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It is until the real costs of excavating under an active heavy rail line crashes the TTC's dream to reality. Right now the cost for doing either option is not material. But one option is excavating and moving support pillars underneath train tracks (lots of $$$ and lots of potential for cost overruns) and the other does not need this. How is the cost difference so small???? My B.S. meter is smelling something rotten.

It also doesn't factor in the cost (or at least I don't think it does) of extra streetcars that will run virtually empty after 2 stops. Both the capex and ongoing opex. When I use to travel on this line daily it was annoying that you had to wait for 2-3 streetcars in the summer for people just to get off for the Ferry or Harbourfront. Yes, I would have been annoyed at having another transfer but it's better than waiting for 30 minutes at Union.
 
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muller877 said:
It is until the real costs of excavating under an active heavy rail line crashes the TTC's dream to reality. Right now the cost for doing either option is not material. But one option is excavating and moving support pillars underneath train tracks (lots of $$$ and lots of potential for cost overruns) and the other does not need this. How is the cost difference so small???? My B.S. meter is smelling something rotten.

It also doesn't factor in the cost (or at least I don't think it does) of extra streetcars that will run virtually empty after 2 stops. Both the capex and ongoing opex. When I use to travel on this line daily it was annoying that you had to wait for 2-3 streetcars in the summer for people just to get off for the Ferry or Harbourfront. Yes, I would have been annoyed at having another transfer but it's better than waiting for 30 minutes at Union.
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You really need to read the report on it, where you will see that the cost is very similar. BOTH options involve excavation and both are (I am sure) going to see cost increases. Steve Munro has a good synopsis at https://stevemunro.ca/2019/03/05/waterfront-transit-reset-the-union-station-connection/
 
DSC said:
You really need to read the report on it, where you will see that the cost is very similar. BOTH options involve excavation and both are (I am sure) going to see cost increases. Steve Munro has a good synopsis at https://stevemunro.ca/2019/03/05/waterfront-transit-reset-the-union-station-connection/
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In the TTC's presentation there is a "Rail Viaduct Risk" for the streetcar. Looking at the drawing there are 2 rows of piles that have to be moved for the streetcar which are not needed to be moved for the APV. No idea how this does not cost any more money.

Heck, for the Union Station Reno they didn't even replace any columns...they just extended them downwards. And we know how that's going.

To replaced the columns they will have to (1) make sure the 2 columns on either side can handle the extra load, (2) add beams to support the intermediate weight and (3) dig down as the beams will take over some headroom. This is what they say when they mean "Rail Viaduct Risk". And my guess is that it'll take quite a lot of money when drawings are done.

And likewise the operating costs are way too close together. By reducing peak load on the streetcar there needs to be fewer streetcars running the entire length of Queens Quay (East and West). About 1/2 as frequent. How does this not reduce cost?

My cynical self is that someone at City Hall/Davisville already knows this. But has hidden this information so it does not factor into the decision (just like Sheppard). Why is no paper nor the Board of the TTC not asking these questions?
 
I wonder if anyone would enter from the Bay East Teamway, go down to the Streetcar platforms, go around, and out to Union station retail area? Obviously, the two PATH bridges above Bay Street north and south of the rail corridor would serve this purpose, but just a thought I had is if a tunnel (similar to the one at the expanded Queens Quay Station) would be possible.

Also, any idea if the streetcar platforms will be in the fare paid area, or would they instead add fare gates in the existing tunnel between Yonge and Streetcar platforms.
 
muller877 said:
In the TTC's presentation there is a "Rail Viaduct Risk" for the streetcar. Looking at the drawing there are 2 rows of piles that have to be moved for the streetcar which are not needed to be moved for the APV. No idea how this does not cost any more money.

Heck, for the Union Station Reno they didn't even replace any columns...they just extended them downwards. And we know how that's going.

To replaced the columns they will have to (1) make sure the 2 columns on either side can handle the extra load, (2) add beams to support the intermediate weight and (3) dig down as the beams will take over some headroom. This is what they say when they mean "Rail Viaduct Risk". And my guess is that it'll take quite a lot of money when drawings are done.

And likewise the operating costs are way too close together. By reducing peak load on the streetcar there needs to be fewer streetcars running the entire length of Queens Quay (East and West). About 1/2 as frequent. How does this not reduce cost?

My cynical self is that someone at City Hall/Davisville already knows this. But has hidden this information so it does not factor into the decision (just like Sheppard). Why is no paper nor the Board of the TTC not asking these questions?
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Look how big the footprint of the APM/streetcar interchange is at queens quay. There is even a maintenance facility north of the station. That probably explains why the costs are nearly the same
 
Momo49 said:
Look how big the footprint of the APM/streetcar interchange is at queens quay. There is even a maintenance facility north of the station. That probably explains why the costs are nearly the same
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I'm sure it was all by design to ensure the streetcar option is chosen.
 
raptor said:
idea: a subway line from Union to centre island. The residents of the islands have been neglected for too long!
sorry..
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Would have been possible if Toronto Island was setup like Jean Drapeau park in Montreal.

But no, instead some privileged boaters and rich people get to have homes on what should be a public space.
 
The Exhibition Place Board is getting an update on transit in the Ex grounds:

During 2018 and over the past few months, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) has been in consultation with Metrolinx, City of Toronto Planning, City of Toronto Transportation and Exhibition Place staff on the 30% design for the expansion of the Harbourfront LRT that runs from Union Station to a terminating loop at the Exhibition Place TTC/GO station. This initial expansion design is to continue the Harbourfront LRT service from Union Station to Dufferin Street and then north, to connect to the King Street and Queen Street streetcar routes. The expansion will improve year-round TTC streetcar service to Exhibition Place, from both the east and from the west; will allow the removal of most TTC bus operations from inside Exhibition Place; will provide more operational flexibility and resiliency to the TTC; and will improve TTC-GO connections.
The LRT expansion is the first phase of the proposed Waterfront Transit project endorsed by City Council on January 31, 2018. Thirty (30%) LRT design and planning has to occur now, as the plan has to interface with many changes happening in the area and being undertaken by several different partners:
• the new GO Station and platform alterations by Metrolinx
• the removal and replacement of the overhead Gardiner deck by City Transportation
• the 1.4 meter elevation change requirement of the permanent Dufferin Bridge to facilitate the electrification of the tracks by City Transportation
• the replacement of the water mains running over the rail corridor by City Water
• the track extension connecting service between the Dufferin Loop and Exhibition Place, complete with new platforms on Exhibition Place grounds at Dufferin Street by TTC
• the protection for future west track expansion of the TTC to connect to the Etobicoke Lakeshore LRT by TTC
• the track replacement at the Dufferin Loop by TTC
• 2019 Master Plan development for Exhibition Place
 
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Can everyone here who is in support of the Waterfront LRT (and the Eglinton East LRT) email Tory and your local Councillors to move forward with this project. If the city has to go it alone, so be it. These parts of the network need to be built and the Mayor and Councillor need to hear from us that this is important to the voters.
 
TorPronto said:
Can everyone here who is in support of the Waterfront LRT (and the Eglinton East LRT) email Tory and your local Councillors to move forward with this project. If the city has to go it alone, so be it. These parts of the network need to be built and the Mayor and Councillor need to hear from us that this is important to the voters.
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Should ask for more money from the Feds. Election time is coming up, tick tick.
 
I don’t know if this is the right thread, but since this has been discussed before here... the Humber Bay Shores Facebook site has a notice of a town hall meeting on May 30th regarding a proposed ferry service from Humber Bay to Yonge St.

Edit: Details here

- Paul
 
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crs1026 said:
I don’t know if this is the right thread, but since this has been discussed before here... the Humber Bay Shores Facebook site has a notice of a town hall meeting on May 30th regarding a proposed ferry service from Humber Bay to Yonge St.

Edit: Details here

- Paul
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I couldn't take that seriously until you posted the link as an edit. Very interesting....
 
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