Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Hank]

Would have been possible if Toronto Island was setup like Jean Drapeau park in Montreal.

But no, instead some privileged boaters and rich people get to have homes on what should be a public space.

The islanders aren't some sort of vanderbilt-style millionaires twirling their moustaches as they drink mint juleps and laugh at the downtrodden mainlanders. They're generally low-to-medium income people that have been living there for 30 years or more (and who can only pass on their houses to spouses or children, so no ability to make a bundle by selling to third parties). There's a lot of artists and other such types. Also, the area on the islands dedicated to housing is minuscule compared to the total size of the islands (it's a total of about 2/3 of Algonquin island and 1/3 of Ward's island...maybe 1/10th or 1/15th of the total area of the islands).

The housing on the islands is, in my opinion, a net positive to the islands (and the city) as a whole. It's charming and quaint. There's already plenty of park space there and there's of course Centreville...would it be worth displacing hundreds of people from their homes for the city to get a very small amount of extra public realm? I don't think so. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you come across as one of those "bread not circuses" people that's mad if every square inch of potentially public property isn't being used 100% as efficiently as possible.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

To clarify for anyone not aware of the general structure, it IS possible for owners of island houses to sell, but this has to be done through a trust which handles all the properties. The price is fixed to prevent windfalls, amounts essentially to what they were worth decades ago and makes the island houses among the cheapest in the city. Purchase options are given by a lottery, which one has to win ANOTHER lottery to be entered in.

 

[robmausser]

The islanders aren't some sort of vanderbilt-style millionaires twirling their moustaches as they drink mint juleps and laugh at the downtrodden mainlanders. They're generally low-to-medium income people that have been living there for 30 years or more (and who can only pass on their houses to spouses or children, so no ability to make a bundle by selling to third parties). There's a lot of artists and other such types. Also, the area on the islands dedicated to housing is minuscule compared to the total size of the islands (it's a total of about 2/3 of Algonquin island and 1/3 of Ward's island...maybe 1/10th or 1/15th of the total area of the islands).

The housing on the islands is, in my opinion, a net positive to the islands (and the city) as a whole. It's charming and quaint. There's already plenty of park space there and there's of course Centreville...would it be worth displacing hundreds of people from their homes for the city to get a very small amount of extra public realm? I don't think so. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you come across as one of those "bread not circuses" people that's mad if every square inch of potentially public property isn't being used 100% as efficiently as possible.

They dont even own the homes anymore on the Island, the city owns all the houses.

 

[Allandale25]

From today's City staff report:

Waterfront Transit Network (Exhibition Loop - Dufferin Loop) The proposed Ontario Line’s potential connection to Exhibition GO Station and alignment in the vicinity of Exhibition Place could potentially impact the demand and design for this segment of the Waterfront Transit project. Travel demand modelling is being undertaken to analyze the impacts to demand on the Waterfront corridor, and a review of the design of the alignment and stop design may be required.

 

[DSC]

They dont even own the homes anymore on the Island, the city owns all the houses.

Not so:

In December 1993, the Toronto Islands Residential Community Trust was established by legislation (Bill 61 as amended) to manage the land and buildings associated with the Island community, on behalf of the Island residents and the general public. Under the legislation, residents on Ward’s and Algonquin Islands are able to hold title to their homes and lease the lots on which their houses stand until December 15, 2092. The Trust is mandated to provide stewardship of the Island Residential Community, ensuring that this community is maintained according to the principles which islanders fought hard for in their 30 year effort to retain their homes.

See: http://torontoisland.org/trust

 

[dowlingm]

From today's City staff report:

Oh great - so now Doug's fantasy train puts another Toronto transit project in the freezer...

Meanwhile it's hard to see how the DoFoChooChoo gets to the Ex without passing under Fort York. If a Liberal/NDP govt did that we would hear nothing above the screams of "but the troops"

 

[DSC]

Oh great - so now Doug's fantasy train puts another Toronto transit project in the freezer...

Meanwhile it's hard to see how the DoFoChooChoo gets to the Ex without passing under Fort York. If a Liberal/NDP govt did that we would hear nothing above the screams of "but the troops"

Though I agree that Doug's railway plans are 'odd', I really see no reason why anyone would object to a tunnel being dug below Fort York. 'Cut and cover' construction would, obviously, be unacceptable but tunnels are built below many historic and/or sacred sites.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The islanders aren't some sort of vanderbilt-style millionaires twirling their moustaches as they drink mint juleps and laugh at the downtrodden mainlanders. They're generally low-to-medium income people that have been living there for 30 years or more (and who can only pass on their houses to spouses or children, so no ability to make a bundle by selling to third parties). There's a lot of artists and other such types. Also, the area on the islands dedicated to housing is minuscule compared to the total size of the islands (it's a total of about 2/3 of Algonquin island and 1/3 of Ward's island...maybe 1/10th or 1/15th of the total area of the islands).

The housing on the islands is, in my opinion, a net positive to the islands (and the city) as a whole. It's charming and quaint. There's already plenty of park space there and there's of course Centreville...would it be worth displacing hundreds of people from their homes for the city to get a very small amount of extra public realm? I don't think so. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you come across as one of those "bread not circuses" people that's mad if every square inch of potentially public property isn't being used 100% as efficiently as possible.

According to the 2016 census the area defined as "Waterfront Communities - The Island" has a median household income of $78,479 compared to Toronto's median $65,829; The medain FY/FT work income (defined as the full year full time income by an individual worker over the age of 15) is $71,192 compared to Toronto's median of $55,246; 18.7% of residents are classified as "Low Income" vs Toronto's 21.9%. They are generally better educated, have less unemployment, and are less dependent on Government assistance. So while the Islanders certainly are not the 1%'ers they are better off than the average Torontonian and certainly ARE NOT low to medium income people

*Huge asterix* Yes I am aware that this profile includes the waterfront residents, I could not find information about just the Islands. Yes there are some well off people living on the waterfront, however I don't think it really skews the data that much.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Though I agree that Doug's railway plans are 'odd', I really see no reason why anyone would object to a tunnel being dug below Fort York. 'Cut and cover' construction would, obviously, be unacceptable but tunnels are built below many historic and/or sacred sites.

They would have used the waters below the original shoreline as a dumping area. Mostly landline today.

From link.

 

[nfitz]

Meanwhile it's hard to see how the DoFoChooChoo gets to the Ex without passing under Fort York.

Both the more detailed plans they've shown so far, show that the line would go down Bathurst, east of Fort York. Though I don't see any concern tunnelling underneath - the foundations there are very shallow.

View attachment 187946

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wonder how much this line will change now with the Ontario Line planned to end at Exhibition. That will likely result in 2 changes in terms of passenger loads;

1. The passenger loads on the central section will be significantly reduced as many coming from the west on the line will transfer at Exhibition;
2. More people will take the line from west of Exhibition as it will be a much quicker trip to downtown. it would only be about a 7 minute subway ride to Queen Station from Exhibition.. compare that to 16 minutes on the existing LRT. It also increases accessibility to many more destinations, especially in the west end, for those users.

I think the Waterfront West LRT would actually be a lot more useful with the Ontario Line. Previously it had a fairly fast and efficient portion from Humber Bay to Exhibition, then got bogged down in stoplights and complicated intersections as it approached downtown. With the Ontario Line, you can transfer to avoid the slow portion. I can picture a ride from Humber Bay to downtown taking only about 30 minutes.

 

[adrianaliu]

I wonder how much this line will change now with the Ontario Line planned to end at Exhibition. That will likely result in 2 changes in terms of passenger loads;

1. The passenger loads on the central section will be significantly reduced as many coming from the west on the line will transfer at Exhibition;
2. More people will take the line from west of Exhibition as it will be a much quicker trip to downtown. it would only be about a 7 minute subway ride to Queen Station from Exhibition.. compare that to 16 minutes on the existing LRT. It also increases accessibility to many more destinations, especially in the west end, for those users.

I think the Waterfront West LRT would actually be a lot more useful with the Ontario Line. Previously it had a fairly fast and efficient portion from Humber Bay to Exhibition, then got bogged down in stoplights and complicated intersections as it approached downtown. With the Ontario Line, you can transfer to avoid the slow portion. I can picture a ride from Humber Bay to downtown taking only about 30 minutes.

couldnt the same thing be eventually achieved with the relief line west along king or queen, and a transfer to the wwlrt at sunnyside

 

[Towered]

From today's City staff report:

Beware the words "review of the design and alignment."

Classic Toronto/Ontario politics. This simple extension might get built in 50 years, after 12 more "reviews".

 

[syn]

The islanders aren't some sort of vanderbilt-style millionaires twirling their moustaches as they drink mint juleps and laugh at the downtrodden mainlanders. They're generally low-to-medium income people that have been living there for 30 years or more (and who can only pass on their houses to spouses or children, so no ability to make a bundle by selling to third parties). There's a lot of artists and other such types. Also, the area on the islands dedicated to housing is minuscule compared to the total size of the islands (it's a total of about 2/3 of Algonquin island and 1/3 of Ward's island...maybe 1/10th or 1/15th of the total area of the islands).

The housing on the islands is, in my opinion, a net positive to the islands (and the city) as a whole. It's charming and quaint. There's already plenty of park space there and there's of course Centreville...would it be worth displacing hundreds of people from their homes for the city to get a very small amount of extra public realm? I don't think so. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you come across as one of those "bread not circuses" people that's mad if every square inch of potentially public property isn't being used 100% as efficiently as possible.

Agreed.

The neighbourhood(s) on the Islands are beautiful. A joy to explore. I've always found the people who live there very friendly too.

I'd easily take what's there now over more park space.

 

[torontocolin]

According to the 2016 census the area defined as "Waterfront Communities - The Island" has a median household income of $78,479 compared to Toronto's median $65,829; The medain FY/FT work income (defined as the full year full time income by an individual worker over the age of 15) is $71,192 compared to Toronto's median of $55,246; 18.7% of residents are classified as "Low Income" vs Toronto's 21.9%. They are generally better educated, have less unemployment, and are less dependent on Government assistance. So while the Islanders certainly are not the 1%'ers they are better off than the average Torontonian and certainly ARE NOT low to medium income people

*Huge asterix* Yes I am aware that this profile includes the waterfront residents, I could not find information about just the Islands. Yes there are some well off people living on the waterfront, however I don't think it really skews the data that much.

Of the 65,913 people in that census tract, only 262 households (likely less than 2%) live on the islands. That data set tells you nothing about them.